my zs supercharged back on the road

[garymgzs180]

hi everyone. here is my 2005 saloon. i got a sprintex supercharger for it back in june but got it back on the road in september. had a few problems and modifications to do but it is all running ok now. it has done 2030 miles since without a worry and was rolling roaded at 238bhp and 200lbft of torque in sept. i have since added programmed water/methanol injection which has allowed me to advance the ignition timing further without pinking. i have also made a few adjustments to the camshaft timing with the aid of some vernier pullies. this has has removed some of the valve overlap and given me 1psi boost more. now running at 5 psi. so i will soon get it rolling roaded again to see what the gains are.

[Supercharged_Z]

hi mate,

looks good, i also have a supercharged zs, probably the longest ongoing, since 2005. had a fair share of issues mind you.

just so you know they run 5psi as std.

[stamford]

It's been a fair while! Sounds like it is sorted now then. Where in Hants are you? You never told us last time.

[garymgzs180]

im in bordon near farnham. are you guys local. how many miles has your supercharged zs done with the cgarger on. what power output is yours.

[carmadbaker]

nice man! we need more pioneers like you :) no moanin...nothing is ever a problem....and hey presto the job gets done! successfully! well done mate, top job :thumbsup:

[Supercharged_Z]

im in bordon near farnham. are you guys local. how many miles has your supercharged zs done with the cgarger on. what power output is yours.

hi mate

mine ran 266bhp 2 years ago.

done 40odd k quite a lot of miles, but had all the trouble, my car really has been the test car for the past 4 years.

2 engine rebuilds
screw units suplied by sprintex packing up
i know you have had the bearings changed, your oil feed is different, i would be slightly concerned as you need to keep the gears cool on the charger, and oil is what does that, also lubricated, im not sure where your outlet is, but left for a day or two is drains away.
i say this as i had the gears get hot, it melts the plastic spider and then the chargers screws lose there timing and basicly wedge themself into the casing



i hope you dont have problems, i never went down the water injection route, but along with lots of other stuff i am considering it.

there is a lot to go wrong, yours looks good, i just dont trust the supplied ecu. somthing to bear in mind if i was you

good luck with it though, we should meet up one day

Ross

[peterzs]

Hats off to both of you for going the Supercharged route, have to take them both up to Santa Pod, Run what yer brung, be interesting to see the times and end speeds.

:super::super::super::wave::wave::wave:

[stamford]

im in bordon near farnham. are you guys local. how many miles has your supercharged zs done with the cgarger on. what power output is yours.

Small world, but never seen your ZS! I drive through Bordon every workday as I work in Ash Vale. I live in Cowplain, just outside Portsmouth. You won't be seeing my zed as it is sorn'd for a while.

[Jay-ZS+]

Looks great mate tempted by the sc one on ebay

[talkingcars]

Suppercharging has to be the way to go with a Vee, shame it isn't just a bolt on mod.

[garymgzs180]

hi ross. i had the same problem with mine melting the spider . the oil could not escape from the specified hole as the gear that runs close to it whips it away (a technique used on jet engines) and so the oil level built up into a bath and the gears boiled the oil. i am using the original oil inlet jet and pipe so there is loads of oil getting in and cooling. i drilled a hole at the lowest point of the snout and returned the oil to the very base of the camcover. i know the oil will drain away from the snout when not running but the gears hold a hell of a lot of residue and will not be damaged when starting the car. yeah george at rsm did the bearings for me. my kit came with the perfect power piggy back ecu. it is a very good unit and does not fail like the early units they supplied. advantage of the smt7 is that you can modify the ignition timing and the fuelling. it is very easy to use and tune. my boost gauge was only showing 4 psi when i first innstalled it.it only shows 5 psi now i have changed the valve overlap. it may just be that my gaige is not very accurate and it may be actually running 6 psi now. i did contact piper to see if they can make me so custom camshafts with higher lift and less duration which is better suited to superchargers but they have not been very helpful so far. are you running standard cams. yeah we should meet up at some point

[garymgzs180]

Hats off to both of you for going the Supercharged route, have to take them both up to Santa Pod, Run what yer brung, be interesting to see the times and end speeds.

:super::super::super::wave::wave::wave:


yeah i wanna yake it to pod. i have bought a nitrous kit specially but am yet to fit and tune. i fear i may push my luck but hopefully will be ok if i know what im doing :mbounce:

[peterzs]

yeah i wanna yake it to pod. i have bought a nitrous kit specially but am yet to fit and tune. i fear i may push my luck but hopefully will be ok if i know what im doing :mbounce:

Took my derv up Feb, great fun had about 7 runs, each time you think, right this time it will be right, but loads of wheelspin and grabbing the gears and my poor old derv left looking at the rear end of Jap skyliners. Still I wasnt worried, untill the clutch started smelling a bit and seeing I wanted to get home, I gave up.

But if I can do it anyone can, just a matter of getting up to the lights and getting away on the green one.

:fun::fun::fun::fun:

[Dave ZS-X]

:innocent:

[rozzr]

i'd love to hear the noise of a s'charged KV6, has anyone got a video of one in action, drive by or something would be great?

very nice looking car btw mate, perfect!

[Supercharged_Z]

Hats off to both of you for going the Supercharged route, have to take them both up to Santa Pod, Run what yer brung, be interesting to see the times and end speeds.

:super::super::super::wave::wave::wave:

been doing pod for a few years, diddnt go this year, 13.5 @104 iirc, 2.260ft best 60ft i gained was 2.0 but car is striped out.

hi ross. i had the same problem with mine melting the spider . the oil could not escape from the specified hole as the gear that runs close to it whips it away (a technique used on jet engines) and so the oil level built up into a bath and the gears boiled the oil. i am using the original oil inlet jet and pipe so there is loads of oil getting in and cooling. i drilled a hole at the lowest point of the snout and returned the oil to the very base of the camcover. i know the oil will drain away from the snout when not running but the gears hold a hell of a lot of residue and will not be damaged when starting the car. yeah george at rsm did the bearings for me. my kit came with the perfect power piggy back ecu. it is a very good unit and does not fail like the early units they supplied. advantage of the smt7 is that you can modify the ignition timing and the fuelling. it is very easy to use and tune. my boost gauge was only showing 4 psi when i first innstalled it.it only shows 5 psi now i have changed the valve overlap. it may just be that my gaige is not very accurate and it may be actually running 6 psi now. i did contact piper to see if they can make me so custom camshafts with higher lift and less duration which is better suited to superchargers but they have not been very helpful so far. are you running standard cams. yeah we should meet up at some point


what oil return did you use? there is one in the bottom of the snout anyway, which as you say whips it away, my concern with yoursetup is the amount of oil it takes to get to the bearings on the gears, it has to run through 2 bearings, wich are rotaing very fast, if i start my car up and undo where your car feeds it takes some time to see oil up there, it possibly would work the other way. if the gears melt then it will wipe the charger, which i have found out is no longer avaible from anybody at all... the unit has been discontinued at opcron, whipple no longer do one the same size and sprintex claim to have 0 lol...
when the spider bearing melted did it stink lol, before we ran oil feeds it had a oil bath, and that was the worst setup ever..


what you have to remembed is the supercharger runs of the aux belt, to get more psi is obviously to change the pully, my car peaks at 6/7psi for a tiny bit also, but not looked into why. i know about the perfect power ecu, looked into it myself but decided to go the DTA route as then i can change everything i like, its risky running the 7th injector the way it is, i did 2 years before my car blew up last time so do hope it all goes ok for you...not sure if your going to the x mas meet, but i will go to that if your going mate


i'd love to hear the noise of a s'charged KV6, has anyone got a video of one in action, drive by or something would be great?

very nice looking car btw mate, perfect!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K43zN2OazBQ my car on rollers at vauxsport, says 243 but iirc it was underreading on the day as the run downs wernt right, it did make 219bhp@atw. a rolling road some months later with some mapping it made 229bhp@atw at a different rolling road turn it up loud lol

[garymgzs180]

100_0412

[garymgzs180]

here is a couple of pictures of my oil lines. could not upload anymore. would not let me. i used the hole ontop of the snout to fit a breather line which goes back to the cam cover. on the first picture you can see where i put the oil return. it is not the hole that is already there in the bottom of the snout but i made a new one one slightly higher up so it does have a very small pool of oil. i used the original oil out line as a second breather. i basically went overkill so the rubber coupling would not melt again. when it melted i did not know anything about it untill i had stopped driving and heard a knocking noise at idle. the knocking was the alloy couplings hitting where the rubber had gone. it completely dissappeared and went out the oil return into the sump. all my oil lines and breathers are 6an aeroquip from speedflow.com . i bought my kit from bridge garage who bought the last ever three kits so i have been helping them and another guy called darren who bought one with their mapping and modifying of which they are grateful. so there will be another 2 on the road in coming weeks.

[garymgzs180]

when and where is the christmas meet. where about do you live ross.

[Supercharged_Z]

ah so its a breather!! sorry i thought it was your feed.

is your return out of the side of the snout? rather than the front?

when we was doing devolpment on it we found 1 cm of oil above or below the max line in the snouth would cause it to overheat, it really is somthing else, i have a melted spider bush in my garage, il grab a pictrue of it, its years old and still stinks to high hell of hot gear oil.

looking forward to seeing a few supercharged zs's about :D its about time :D

[Supercharged_Z]

bedfordshire near aylesbury, i think the x mas meet is in bluewater kent iirc

[peterzs]

[QUOTE=Supercharged_Z;127688]been doing pod for a few years, diddnt go this year, 13.5 @104 iirc, 2.260ft best 60ft i gained was 2.0 but car is striped out.

4 sec quicker, and 22mph faster, my stripping out was to leave the spare tyre at home.

Would have shed more weight if I had got rid of my spare tyre, saved a couple of stone!!!

:-D:-D:-D:-D

[StragglaSteve]

Ive been in and out of Farnham quite alot to visit my godson...

but ive never seen another ZS!! are you sure you guys live there? ;)

lots of ZR's round that way!

[garymgzs180]

bedfordshire near aylesbury, i think the x mas meet is in bluewater kent iirc

the way i saw it was that the oil is what lubricates and cools the gears. once the oil has been sprayed onto the gears it has done its job and needs to be evacuated as quickly as possible as it is now hot. the gears have no clearance between them . they are meshed tightly and so when using the oil return higher up you have an oil bath. the oil cannot escape from between the gears as they mesh and that is what loads it up and causes all the heat. we bench tested the theory. we ran the charger with a drill with the snout off. then applied lots of oil and the drill slowed down alot where the load had increased. so we found that just the oil jet was ample lubrication.

here is a small article about cam timing when using supercharger instead of naturally aspirated. every bit of research i do says the same thing. reducing valve overlap, reduced inlet duration and increased valve lift are the modifications required. im trying to get a new set of cams made but piper insist that their 270 durations cams for naturally aspirated will do the job. but george at rsm has already advised me that they do not work as he has already tried. was it you and your car that george has been helping with
Intake cam:

Because of the negative effects of overlap on a supercharger car's performance, and especially in the case of high exhaust back pressure as is the case with most factory supercharged cars, we find that the optimal cam duration for the intake cam is typically 30-40* of duration less than a normally aspirated camshaft for the same peak power RPM. The decision to reduce the intake cam duration rather than split the duration reduction between the intake and exhaust cams, is that the intake cam will flow air under pressurized conditions (due to the addition of the supercharger and the increase in intake manifold pressure) and so at a reduced intake cam duration the engine will still be able to get it's full share of intake air. At the same time, the high rpm efficiency improvement from the reduction of overlap will also boost power production with a more conservative cam. Finally, if we would like to get more flow from the intake cam, there is still the option of using a higher lift camshaft (with a steeper profile due to the decreased duration) with supporting valve train modifications to make sure valve float doesn't occur at higher rpms.

Intake cam timing:

The cam timing for the intake cam would ideally be retarded which would move the intake cam opening event farther away from the exhaust valve closing event so as to reduce or eliminate overlap, and as a side effect the power stroke duration will increase by retarding the intake cam which can also compensate for the lost power from the duration reduction.

Exhaust cam:

The exhaust cam duration and lift for a supercharged version of the motor should be similar to a nitrous camshaft, in the sense that the exhaust cams on nitrous specific builds have:

1- Very healthy cam duration & very healthy cam lift to allow a severely elevated amount of exhaust gases to be able to efficiently exit the motor when the nitrous is activated and the horsepower (and thus the exhaust gasses) have both doubled in quantity.

2- As little or no overlap if possible, as any overlap would mean that nitrous would be sprayed from the intake side and out the exhaust, which is wasteful of our limited supply of nitrous. Similarly the more overlap we have, the harder the supercharger will have to work because of what we explained earlier about either exhaust reversion into the intake, or the supercharger pressurizing the exhaust.

Exhaust cam timing:

Advancing the exhaust cam both opens and closes the exhaust valves sooner. Opening the exhaust valve sooner slightly reduces the power stroke, but at the same time it reduces overlap and makes better use of our supercharger. Typically an an advanced exhaust cam combined with retarded intake cam will provide the best results on a supercharged car, especially with a restrictive exhaust.

[Supercharged_Z]

well i can only say that george ran his car with cams and it lost power. put the car back to std cams and it gained, it also gained no boost from it.

but my car has been helped by george for 4 yr, however its always been budget restricted.

with regards to the oil, i think i mistook yours, mine is very simular just a different exit.

overall you will probably find what i have over time, pistons are too weak for forced induction. simular to the ones on the 160 k series. however long it takes for them to fail is the question, i was very suprised when my car failed it was running perfect for two years, fueling spot on also, ran good power and got abused on the track.

[garymgzs180]

well i can only say that george ran his car with cams and it lost power. put the car back to std cams and it gained, it also gained no boost from it.

but my car has been helped by george for 4 yr, however its always been budget restricted.

with regards to the oil, i think i mistook yours, mine is very simular just a different exit.

overall you will probably find what i have over time, pistons are too weak for forced induction. simular to the ones on the 160 k series. however long it takes for them to fail is the question, i was very suprised when my car failed it was running perfect for two years, fueling spot on also, ran good power and got abused on the track.

i totally agree with the cams. the originals are better unless you get some custom made. i think the pistons need to be changed but as with yours it is budget restricted. i would love some forged lower compression pistons. is that what your running in your car.

[Supercharged_Z]

i totally agree with the cams. the originals are better unless you get some custom made. i think the pistons need to be changed but as with yours it is budget restricted. i would love some forged lower compression pistons. is that what your running in your car.

no, i am just about to order some . there not hugely expensive but putting them in is.

the ringlands are weak and its just the way of getting around that. i rekon that with stronger pistons you could run the piggy back ecu setup and be reliable without the cost of dta etc.

[Dave ZS-X]

interesting read
nice to see someone trying new things with sc kv6.
it was my kv6 with cams in that george brought, he was hoping it would make big power with an sc strapped to it, as it had already good power but it wasnt that easy. Shame he didnt stick with it because cams can work well with sc applications, you just need some designed for the job.
from what ive been told the basic charger with its little mods (bearings and oil feed etc) will work for some miles if treated with respect but to have reliaibilty and power and use that power in confidence you really need for starters....

uprated fuel pump and swirl pot
proper bigger injectors
proper programmable ecu
uprated pistons
water injection for cooling

i guess that lots going to cost a good few thousands but i hope someone does it and then tries somemore boost.

[Supercharged_Z]

you dont need bigger injectors

the fuel pump and swirl pot is needed for track really. however it wouldnt hurt to have one and to be honest its not a huge expense.


Dave there ecu this chap is running is different to my piggy back unit, he can do more, if fueling is good then he wont have problems as long as afr is ok, but you could compliment it with a stand alone


forge pistons yeah, i agree if your reving at high revs a lot.

water injection isnt really needed depinding on what your doing with the rest of the car.

[Dave ZS-X]

yeah you can make do for some time without some of those things but making do is what keeps resulting in failures. If your doing it do it right or it will bite you in the ass eventually.

[Supercharged_Z]

yeah you can make do for some time without some of those things but making do is what keeps resulting in failures. If your doing it do it right or it will bite you in the ass eventually.

not at all. the failures are because of weak ringlands they break up at consistant high revs

as mentioned forged pistons would be a good move.

some of the things you have said are not needed at all

[Bobdope2002]

oh gawd the SC wheres harbs if he gets wind of this he'll be on here telling everyone not to do it and telling you and this guy that he was wrong to buy one and his car is gonna go bang tommorow :@

[Dave ZS-X]

i dont agree ross, you dont need some of those things if you are going to drive like a granny maybe but why have a supercharger if you arent going to use it, and what if you want to go on track once in a while or to pod.
Theres no point skimping on a build, and then driving around in a car were your nervous every time you give it the beans incase it fails....do it properly first time and it will save you in the long run. Youve been saying for 4 years this works and that works and we dont need such and such and yet here we are still seeing failures.
When your building an engine you have to factor in good tolerances if you want it to last, and this is why they havent lasted because instead of being built with some tolerance margin they are in fact already producing more power than the engine was designed for.
Ive seen yours and georges sc zs run up pod in only mild heat and it killed your terminal speeds thanks to intake temps ,ive known you run 99 mph terminals and i matched that in my nasp zs, so if you cant even go to pod and do a few runs without losing power then something needs looking at and george strongly advised me to go water injection when i looked at charging my zs.

[Supercharged_Z]

i dont agree ross, you dont need some of those things if you are going to drive like a granny maybe but why have a supercharger if you arent going to use it, and what if you want to go on track once in a while or to pod.
Theres no point skimping on a build, and then driving around in a car were your nervous every time you give it the beans incase it fails....do it properly first time and it will save you in the long run. Youve been saying for 4 years this works and that works and we dont need such and such and yet here we are still seeing failures.
When your building an engine you have to factor in good tolerances if you want it to last, and this is why they havent lasted because instead of being built with some tolerance margin they are in fact already producing more power than the engine was designed for.
Ive seen yours and georges sc zs run up pod in only mild heat and it killed your terminal speeds thanks to intake temps ,ive known you run 99 mph terminals and i matched that in my nasp zs, so if you cant even go to pod and do a few runs without losing power then something needs looking at and george strongly advised me to go water injection when i looked at charging my zs.

ho ho, i ran 99mph terminals when the wind was blowing down track in a very big way, not because my intake temps were through the roof.
never really lost power at pod always been around 102 and last time i went 104 for weight saving, hence the consistant amount of timing slips, everytime i have been it got faster with less weight. easy.

on that list, please tell me exactly why you need the items you have listed. give examples? why does he need bigger injectors whats wrong with his smt he has etc?

[Dave ZS-X]

ask george hes told me what they needed more than once and he should know.
Sorry but if you knew what you were on about youd still be on your first engine and your first charger, but hey i dont really care, you keep skimping and paying the consequences, its your wallet,lol.

[Supercharged_Z]

ask george hes told me what they needed more than once and he should know.
Sorry but if you knew what you were on about youd still be on your first engine and your first charger, but hey i dont really care, you keep skimping and paying the consequences, its your wallet,lol.

Dave i thought it was more than reasonable to ask you to justify your comments, rather than talking about things that might not be needed or understand why they are needed.

forged pistons yes, after all they are what break, and as we learnt with my car over time. why they break? have you looked into this?

im asking why or how you substantiate the rest of the list you have posted.

Belive you me i have looked down every avenue afterall iv had a supercharged zs for over 4 years, having looked at specs problems etc along with George, what you post isnt the route you would need to take if you have a supercharged zs.

also im intrested! do you know what your on about?

[Dave ZS-X]

as i said george told me what they needed, i have a a p.m from only a few weeks back from him saying what they needed and thats from the horses mouth.
the fact you have been playing around with the charger for 4 years and you still dont have a reliable set up backs up everything ive said.
If you know how to make them work why are we still having failures.
Prove your words and show us a proper build and a reliable supercharger set up because as of yet 4 years worth of playing has achieved nothing.

[Supercharged_Z]

as i said george told me what they needed, i have a a p.m from only a few weeks back from him saying what they needed and thats from the horses mouth.
the fact you have been playing around with the charger for 4 years and you still dont have a reliable set up backs up everything ive said.
If you know how to make them work why are we still having failures.
Prove your words and show us a proper build and a reliable supercharger set up because as of yet 4 years worth of playing has achieved nothing.

Dave as i said on XPF, i have ntohing to prove to you,

my setup broke over a year ago, cracked ringland..what does that tell you?

why did it crack? what was the condition on the piston? how much fuel did i have etc etc etc.

remember iv had a year out. and i had 2 good years with trackdays and lots of pods with no failues, so that leaves what? 1 year with my red zs where i used my company car all the time.

really Dave why dont you tell me whats wrong with it from your mouth, i speak with george a few times a week, i know what he has to say.

where am i going wrong, why do i need this list you have made? what examples can you give for the items you have listed?

what do the std injectors flow?
whats wrong with the smt?
why do the pistons break up
what are the intake temps of the charged cars

im intrested

[Ritchy]

this thread needs less arguing:D

[stamford]

It's probably not helping the for sale thread either.

Don't let this thread detract from the original author please as it is getting taken off subject.


If you want to have discussions on supercharging by all means start another thread so we can all see the facts and proof. There are many people in the MG world fascinated by supercharging and the stories we hear. It wouldn't hurt to hear them in more detail but with some real substance in them.

[Maxfly]

Supercharge thread here:) http://www.themgzs.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?p=128961#post128961

[Dave ZS-X]

is this car still alive and has it been reliable?

[petet16]

He last posted in July, at which point it was still running.

[Malcs]

This is my 1st Post I own the green ZR in the 1st set of pictures alongside gary ZS! Its still running in fact its had a host of improvements and is now an insane monster! I will give him a TXT and tell him to get back on here and update this thread!

Im planning to sell the Zr and get a ZS 180 after falling in love with gary's one

[stamford]

This is my 1st Post I own the green ZR in the 1st set of pictures alongside gary ZS! Its still running in fact its had a host of improvements and is now an insane monster! I will give him a TXT and tell him to get back on here and update this thread!

Im planning to sell the Zr and get a ZS 180 after falling in love with gary's one

Yea, give him a prod, would like to know what's happening and how it's going.

[Malcs]

Yea, give him a prod, would like to know what's happening and how it's going.

looks like I need to give him a slap ive told him to come back and let you all know how its running!

[stamford]

Hard to believe I drive through Bordon twice a day and never see him!

[Malcs]

Hard to believe I drive through Bordon twice a day and never see him!

I work with gary and we get work vans so dont drive our cars on a daily bases so when it does come out its not at commuting times. I think hes done about 12k miles on the supercharger setup now

[stamford]

Right, makes sense then.