vis motors make me cry!!!

[lawrence-zs180]

morning dudes... well after fixing my balance vis inc running 2 new wires because 2 tracks on the board had burnt out I felt the.. well actually its what I didnt feel thats annoying me so I'm thinking that either my soldering has failed.. very poss.. or the dam motor has finally died which after draining a fair bit of oil out of the casing i can also see happening.

Sooo I'm gonna start looking for brushless motors after something jay mentioned.. there are a really good model shops round me so thats where im off to this afternoon but there is a slight problem, I dont have any details on the motor does anyone have one or know the details so i can get things started. If I find one i will post the results so we can solve another of the problems.

[Dan1971]

I might be able to get hold of a couple of vis motors. Not sure if they are working - but you'd be welcome to them in the short term.

I'll keep you posted. All depends on a little request I've made at work.:look:

[peterzs]

Best of luck, they do seem a pain in the ****

:clap::clap::clap:

[lawrence-zs180]

I might be able to get hold of a couple of vis motors. Not sure if they are working - but you'd be welcome to them in the short term.

I'll keep you posted. All depends on a little request I've made at work.:look:
cheers dude.. I have a spare that works Im just not up for fitting it if its just gonna fail in a few weeks/months, looking for a long term fix because its becoming a right ball ache. Im mainly after the number on the top and dimensions. But cheers anyway dude.

[Smokey]

012 01
3**2
20028

Johnson Motor

*-numbers worn off (this may be 2 or 3 numbers)

Thats from my balance motor which I have removed and is sitting on my table.

Hope it helps a little?

[lawrence-zs180]

awsome dude... its more than i have haha.
i can now look up those details on find the size so i can get the ball rolling. will keep you guys posted.

found a pic..
012 01
3A0903
20028

[KevG]

I done a lot of research I to these motors before, to cut a long story short Johnson electric who make the motors will not sell to the public, they are priced at ?25 each!

[lawrence-zs180]

would it be poss to change it over for a smaller brushless because of the gained power due to it being brushless?... even though they start at ?19 is it not worth it because rimmers want a ton for a balance motor.. I think. Also my dad ownes a elec company so if needs be i could get a load and then you guys can get them off me.

[Smokey]

I just removed the apparently harder motor, no issue lol

the numbers on it are different.

012 01
394345
20028

just FYI.

And this one was oily as heck!

[lawrence-zs180]

the middle number must be batch or unit number

[lawrence-zs180]

Just got back from the model shop and there are 2 options to look at si im going to get a balance motor I have seen on ebay and fit that so I will give me 2 knackered units.
One is going to have a brushless system fitted which has one problem.. because its brushless it will need a speed controller.
The other Im going to fit a servo in and run it that way because all it is is a on/off motion.. ok its connected to the revs but in theory if I can create a pulse it will work at the needed revs, and more importantly cost peanuts.
Im going down with my other knackerd balance vis on fri to start getting things started and sized up.
will keep you all posted.

[Nor]

I just removed the apparently harder motor, no issue lol

the numbers on it are different.

012 01
394345
20028

just FYI.

And this one was oily as heck!

I have a working balance btw if that's the one that's broken on yours and you can't repair it.

[Jay-ZS+]

Will be intrested to see your results Lawrence, would be a good solution once they are fitted and the with the board sealed from oil could be a permanent fix for the VIS motors failure! :thumbsup:

[lawrence-zs180]

yep yep... the power motor could be fun though because of the non on/off motion.
you know where i can get hold of the full rev range details for the balance motor??

[Smokey]

I have a working balance btw if that's the one that's broken on yours and you can't repair it.

I'll bear that in mind nor cheers, have repaired them, just bought sealant so will get them fitted and tested tomorrow if I can resolve the broken screw problem!

[KevG]

found this on ebay apparently it could be a suitable replacement

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220668227838&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

And I have emailed Johnson Electric to see about these motors.

[lawrence-zs180]

awsome dude that looks like it could do it for a direct replacment. im looking into the other methods on friday afternoon so will hopefully have something to report then about a full fix.

[LozMachine]

Just got back from the model shop and there are 2 options to look at si im going to get a balance motor I have seen on ebay and fit that so I will give me 2 knackered units.
One is going to have a brushless system fitted which has one problem.. because its brushless it will need a speed controller.
The other Im going to fit a servo in and run it that way because all it is is a on/off motion.. ok its connected to the revs but in theory if I can create a pulse it will work at the needed revs, and more importantly cost peanuts.
Im going down with my other knackerd balance vis on fri to start getting things started and sized up.
will keep you all posted.

They work at certain %throttle openings too i think, would'nt know how to get around that, too complicated for me :unsure:

[Jay-ZS+]

They work at certain %throttle openings too i think, would'nt know how to get around that, too complicated for me :unsure:

Not looked in to it myself, but pretty certain its all controlled by the circuit the motor is either 'on or off'

The link in Kevs post looks very promising!!!

[LozMachine]

Yeah probably on or off, but under what conditions are they on or off,
Just that the 2 parameters given are D revs and E throttle opening,

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk107/MollyWheezes/VISvalveoperatingstrategy.jpg

[Nor]

I have never understood that diagram :)

[lawrence-zs180]

The throttle opening is read by the position sensor as we all know, I assume that then the info is sent to the ecu so the right amoumt of fuel is sent and at the same time the vis motor is set to open, open, or shut.. im sure it has to be controlled by the ecu thats why jays indicator works because its wired into the 2 circuits for each motor but its making me wonder if its a constant current keeping it closed/open or just a pulse.

[stamford]

I still say stick it on the rollers and interrogate the graph to see if it is doing what it should when it should. Not all set-ups will be identical due to manufacturing tolerances but should be close. Some motors may be slower than others, some plenum assemblies freer than others so the operating parameters will differ from car to car irrespective of what the ecu is doing. The changes seen on the graph, if all working correctly, would be minimal if comparing several similar engine runs. It is only a comparison test afterall.

[lawrence-zs180]

im going to stick it on the rollers anyway so i can get a reading to prove.. to myself more than anything that the balance motor is shot but I also want to check the power motor.
Not all set-ups will be identical due to manufacturing tolerances but should be close. Some motors may be slower than others, some plenum assemblies freer than others so the operating parameters will differ from car to car irrespective of what the ecu is doing.
So the ecu will send out the signal at the same speed it always will because its digital with no moving parts and the only thing that will slow the process down is the moving parts.. like the throttle+cable, vis motor, worm drive, cog and the butterfly. But they cant be that far apart surely??
All im looking to do is find a better way of moving the butterfly that lets zero oil in.. or is not affected by what gets in.. but in the mean time I have ordered one of the motors in kev's link to see if that works as a direct replacment till a full solution can be found.

[KevG]

Seen this over on the 75/ZT forum

Fantastic idea, and incorporates a VIS tester too

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/workaholic_ro/VIS%20valves%20-%20project%201/DSCN0121.jpg

[lawrence-zs180]

thats amazing.. the balance is thinner so i wonder whats running it.
do you have the original post??
Oh i found the tester info as well so im gonna build one... well once i find the connecter ends lol

[KevG]

thats amazing.. the balance is thinner so i wonder whats running it.
do you have the original post??
Oh i found the tester info as well so im gonna build one... well once i find the connecter ends lol

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=36217

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=37268&highlight=vis+oil+barrier

[KevG]

Shamelessly stolen from the 75/ZT

VIS Tester Circuit

[Jay-ZS+]

Yer I saw that a while ago and posted it here somewhere, my only worry was that they stick up fairly high wondered what bonnet clearance would be like on a zs. Although looking at it again doesnt stick up much further than the plenum certainly seems a great design

[lawrence-zs180]

That as well as the clearance between the motor and brake fluid tank.. I think there gonna be just to big but only by like 2mm maybe 3mm, but its a bloody good base to start from.. what Im looking at is the same thing but in the original size case.

[LozMachine]

There's a how to upgrade on sealing the vis motors from oil here http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?p=4032901&highlight=vis+repair#post4032901on org, may be useful, every little helps and all that

[lawrence-zs180]

yea i read that link when i first started having problems with my first mani ages ago.. its kind of where the base of my idea came from.. but there has to be a easier way than that, its going to have to be something that the 'avarage' hobby car mechanic can do.. like me lol.
The other design had to be stopped because of the costs and there where problems starting to come up from what i read on the list post he had for it.

[lawrence-zs180]

Right the motor has arrived... finally!!! got delivered to the wrong sodding address.
So on thurs its a gonna be wired in and tested along with my modded casing.. its going to run in a small oil bath and we will see if any gets in... watch this space...

[Jay-ZS+]

Nice one will be intrested in your results :)

[lawrence-zs180]

lol makes 2 of us... problem is that what im trying will mean I will have to do a kit, kind of dont have the time but hey haha... its gotta get past the testing stage lawrence stop counting your chickens and all that..

[KevG]

Hmmm, interested in this also..

[lawrence-zs180]

Right bit of a update... got the parts and had a test run but there are a few sealing problems so Im gonna have a chat with my mate who does model boats and see if we cant sort it.
Will post a full how to and parts list when its finished.

[Jay-ZS+]

How did this go lawrence? Did you manage to get it all sealed up and working well?

[lawrence-zs180]

There still in bits for the min, prob not the best idea to have started it just before the joy of xmas month. Gonna finish them in jan

[Jay-ZS+]

Im gonna be stripping mine down at some point this month as think I have blown something messing about with part made indicators :slap:

Will be watching this to see if I can improve them whilst they are apart.

Anyone heard from sheddist on his manifold fix?

[lawrence-zs180]

Its on my list for this thurs/friday to finally finish this fix... with the xmas month and the restaurant it got sidelined.
If you have blown a motor I can give you the details of the one im trying out.

[Jay-ZS+]

Yer that would be good lawrence, ive got some motors spare somewhere to try it out on.

My car has felt slugish for months now! lol

[lawrence-zs180]

here it is...
Mabuchi FC-280PT-22125
There about ?7 off ebay and require the shaft being shortened before you can fit the... er.. metal bit that turns the worm.. sorry dude no idea what its called lol.

Also got to go shopping because I have the plugs so I can make my own test box

[Jay-ZS+]

Ah nice Ive been meaning to make a test box at some point but its low on the list lol

Assume the motors are identical for both?

[lawrence-zs180]

yea they are both the same dude... if its finished by the weekend you can borrow it to test yours.

[Jay-ZS+]

Dont suppose you manage to get round to this, got the day off tomorrow thought id have a go at it.