View Full Version : MG ZS td fusion performance remap figures
Had the car remapped at fusion performance in hinckley around 3-4 weeks ago, and was really pleased with the performance! went back today to get it rolling roaded to get the figures:
http://img856.imageshack.us/i/dyno1.jpg/
the car has had the following mods:
Larger downpipe
Decat
K4.80 filter
SDI injectors
On the rollers it ran 140bhp and 226 ft-lbs of torque, so your probably thinking not much of a gain for what has been done, but as you can see from the graph i have a horrible boost leak at 3000 rpm! Also i had a new clutch fitted since the remap, and since the new clutch has been fitted the car has not felt the same!
http://www.themgzs.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=16534
Originally after the remap, i had a play with a remapped 1.9 diesel astra (150bhp standard) and a remapped 2.0 diesel volvo C30 (140bhp standard i think) and i was quicker than both. Since i have had the clutch changed i am not quicker than either so there is definately something wrong!
over the next week or 2 im going to sort the boost leak (fmic) and possibly look at sorting out the problem with the clutch (may result in a new clutch again if needs be!)
then it will be back to fusion, to get a proper run on the rollers! so watch this space.......
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8476/dyno1.jpg
Dan1971
30-03-11, 08:30 PM
Interesting -
I'm gonna get a remap 100% - but was hoping for closer to 150 to be honest.
Starting at 115 I don't think it's too much to ask to be honest -
Hoping to get at least 5 from a decat - 120ish - maybe 10 from SDis - 130ish - so I don't think 20 from a remap is a tall order to be honest.
Keep this updated mate with any faults you find....
Interesting -
I'm gonna get a remap 100% - but was hoping for closer to 150 to be honest.
Starting at 115 I don't think it's too much to ask to be honest -
Hoping to get at least 5 from a decat - 120ish - maybe 10 from SDis - 130ish - so I don't think 20 from a remap is a tall order to be honest.
Keep this updated mate with any faults you find....
Dan... remember a 115 is actually a remapped 101 done by the factory. 140 is safe but hitting over 150 things start to go pear shaped and you are at the top end of what a standard turbo can handle. People have gone upto 170 but the engines didn't last long and after rebuilds everyone turns it down.
With the boost leak, and the problems with the clutch 140 is not bad really. Before I had these problems it was running around 155 (I think anyway with how it was performing)
In the next couple of weeks this will all be sorted and it will be back on he rollers ready to see what it is running when everything is sorted.
Dan... remember a 115 is actually a remapped 101 done by the factory. 140 is safe but hitting over 150 things start to go pear shaped and you are at the top end of what a standard turbo can handle. People have gone upto 170 but the engines didn't last long and after rebuilds everyone turns it down.
That is not true... i have not toned anything down on the mapping side from my 170. :p
150 has been hit my many many many cars with SDi's and so far there has been very little reported issues once the timing advance that was originally put in was reset and the fuelling was reduced a smidgin.... that was about 2 years ago.
i do agree that 150 is the top of the turbo's range the smoke of a 160bhp mapped car is substantially greater than mine on full chat!
There is always the exception to the rule, it's difficult getting it right all the time, but it was meant to be a generalisation. Fantastic if you can still run 170 but that is far from a cheap and easy upgrade as I am sure you will admit.
The real point is that the bhp increase of SDi's de-cat and remap is actually about a 40+bhp jump on standard as 115 is already a remap.
peterzs
31-03-11, 05:27 PM
This was my RR few years ago now, have now got some SDi's to go in and thinking of taking it to Reidies at Yeovil, after fitting them.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm214/peterzs/1-1.jpg
be interesting to see what its pushing out.
Mines not been mapped yet.... am happy jack as it it is..... for now ;) lol
peterzs
31-03-11, 08:18 PM
Must admit its getting me worried now, as it seems 150+bhp and the torque that goes with it can bu**er the engine/clutch up.
It goes well as is and if I wanted 180 performance I would have bought one, so will have to have a think about it.
:super::super::laugh::laugh::yes::yes:
Dan1971
31-03-11, 08:54 PM
Must admit its getting me worried now, as it seems 150+bhp and the torque that goes with it can bu**er the engine/clutch up.
It goes well as is and if I wanted 180 performance I would have bought one, so will have to have a think about it.
:super::super::laugh::laugh::yes::yes:
Not worth worrying about mate ..... If you're happy then leave it.
I just think that there is always a bit of untapped performance in there and that engines are always way within tolerencies when they come out of the box.
I can't see that SDis and a decat would put any more strain on the engine, but there is probably an arguement that they do allow them to breath and function more easily. A remap might push it a bit if you get carried away turning up the turbo etc, but if the car can be helped to perform better, unless you're gunning it all the time, or pumping it to extreme levels, I can't see that it'll do a great deal of harm.
And ..... you can get a new engine for a few hundred quid if it all goes totally bent. come on .... man up.
As soon as I'm able, I'm getting it looked at and I'll have the print telling me that I've got 150ish under the bonnet and in gear torque to keep a big smile on my face.
A few years ago when the VW GTi turbo was launched with 150bhp I was well impressed with it. For me to have that power and 40+mpg from a car that has cost me comparitively very little and lets me feel like I belong here ..... I'll be a very happy guy.
peterzs
31-03-11, 09:08 PM
Must admit Dan, be fun going round Brands again, in two dervs this time.
Don't think I did my clutch any favours going from 2nd to 5th. when pulling out of a lay-by and getting over into the fast lane, with a car coming up fast behind. Doh!!!
Does seem to be OK again now though.
Now I've got the SDi's, I suspect I'll bang them in and see what happens.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
now that i can see the graph it really does not look like it boost leak to me!
boost leak would result itself much sooner and in fact reduce your torque by quite a lot - not suddenly show up at 3000rpm.
the OE turbo has hit max PSI by where you show the peak of your torque curve.... and with a laeak i would have thought it would result in peak torque much later... unless a pipe split on you on the dyno.. but that would NOT result in a massive surge of torque\power..... as per the grpah you posted...
Here is a recent one of mine - it is not a direct comparison as mine is a hybrod turbo, but it has got 3 runs on there.... 2 higher power ones and one 'safe' map
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/pretty_bird/IMG_0270.jpg
the SDI;s generally have a nice high peak, and then a gradual slow slide down as the revs increase...
you got a clutch slip at all with that new unit or summit as that shape is really quite odd and abnormal imo!
Hope you get it sorted out tho as it should be pretty tasty once sorted correctly :)
i had a quick look on sunday and the intercooler pipe that heads over and then back down the back of the engine was starting to disintegrate! the cars off the road now and having quite a bit of work done to it, hopefully:
- sort out the clutch issue (clutch/flywheel)
- have a look at the fuelling as it has had a few problems - odd occasions where it misfires on idle and doesnt seem to respond very well (sender unit?)
- replace the turbo
- fmic
- a few other minor repairs (rocker gasket, exhaust bracket needs welding back on bla bla)
then it will be going back to fusion to see what it can actually do!
right the fuel pump has also just given way! so this could have contributed to the above result!
what can the standard pump take power wise?
peterzs
18-04-11, 03:13 PM
mega bucks for a new one I'm afraid, Pete with the tuned one will fill you in on power etc.
no onw 'know's the true rating of the fuel pump itself, but the vag boys get serious power out of the same pump on the older engined cars... big turbo's and race injectors required.
however they run the other way round to ours and at a higher voltage - maybe for some reason rover identified an issue with the direction and reduced the flow rates on OE.
however it is good for 150-180 or so bhp according to Reidy (pending mods etc)
zsserbia
23-04-11, 10:27 PM
factory rating of the pump is only 25 kw/cylinder... so a 100 kw is about it's peak performance. I can see you get this much power as soon as 3000 rpm and this is a great result, but track wise the pump would suffer from higher revs and it's life may be shorter...
well i can tell you about how the old pump failedwhen i strip it down.. but it was the timing solenoid that gave up not the pump itself.....
Just bcause a component came out a factory rated at X does not mean that it cannot be tweaked slightly - there is so much redundancy in most engineering things now adays....
in fairness it has done over 25K miles in tuned state - even with it being 'broken' for long periods due to other engine parts failing on me lool
and i re-iterate, the vag boys get well over 200bhp from the same vp37 pump with reliability - they utilise a VNT turbo to achive the power, they are lucky enough to have a map for it in the ecu!
zsserbia
27-04-11, 05:11 PM
The l-series is made very simple and to last for 500k miles if well maintained. It is factory underpowered in order to last even if severely neglected. I'm not saying it shouldn't be tuned for optimum performance but if you still want it to last then you should utilize it's higher torque and smooth power delivery but not push it to hard to often... As for the vags they are prone to melt a piston or two when pushed hard, none to mention the standard turbo if used melts fairly quickly... As for the pump it's true that the timing solenoid would die first...
i know i am playing slightly late catch-up each time - but i am yet to ever see a single L-series in any guise get beyond 300K. whether it was designed for that is irrelevant - the early 'bomb proof' engines have bodywork rust in the (s)DI.
the vag units that melt pistons are all badly tuned. i know of many that are 200bhp+ that are running, and melted pitons are not a chancer trying his luck, they are some-one who has been told by a tuner that it can cope and it not being the case - eg bad mapping.
I was told that my turbo was good for the engine and was safe and reliable - i know differently.
I know I might sound harsh, but you have said some fairly 'strong' things here and yet you do not seem to have any evidence to back up your theory other than what you say. i have seen a lot of L-series both VP-30 and vp37 (and older mechanical pumps) in various levels of tune generate power in excess of what you say is the max the engine can deliver.
reliabilty is all relative once you start to exceed the desgined limis by more that 20% - teh 'safe' tune is significantly more than this with SDI injectors and a mild remap... which really takes a huge amount of stress out the pump itself....
timins solenoid failure is not linked to actual tuning - i am ware of a lot of 'OE spec' cars that have failed - in fact it is Dr Dave's biggest and most vociferous argument against a vp30 pumped car; and he knows his stuff!
zsserbia
01-05-11, 02:48 AM
I'm not saying you're not right, any derv out there can be tuned in variety of specs and provide a lot of joy on the road... My point is that driving habits should be a bit different once they are tuned in order to keep them safe from any malfunction - If oe spec engine fails when revved to high than why shouldn't a tuned one do so? Or if tuned engine delivers more power and torque at 3000 rpm then it used to deliver at over 4000 before it was tuned, then why not just utilizing this and not revving it's guts through the tailpipe? The main reliability issue of modern diesels is that they rev to high and still aren't up to the task except for some modern tdi's which are actually built for racing... Good thing they deliver so much power but they can't be bulletproof past the revs they were designed for decades ago. It's nice though that they can now provide satisfaction of overtaking some of the petrolheads on the motorway, but that's just about it. Those who punish them on the track, may be punished more severely on their way home. That's why no one can tune someone's derv and guarantee there won't be any side effects. Tuners are in many cases not to be blamed...
That is a very fair point and i agree with you on that one....
I am in the position i am as the tuner that sold me a part did not do his sums correctly and a a result i have blown the HG twice.
the limiter on an OE car is or should be set to 4200 - that is the engine max load rating; mine however came out the factory with a much higher limiter than that - before i fiddle with it.
However with all that said i have toned the fuelling down from above 4200 rpm as i just dont need to use those revs.
It would be rare that a derv would deliver more torque at 3000 than it did at 4000, just due to the way we usually have little turbo's - but again i agree with the sentiments disels are just not designed for reving - unless you drop the compression ratio to counter the increased cylinder pressures that the lower time for the various cycles then require.
but as soon as you do that you loose the efficiency and make cold starting harder etc..
hoo hum.. tuning something on a low budget compared to what the motor manufacturers spent millions on is never going to be an exact science, nor an easy process :D
zsserbia
02-05-11, 03:21 PM
Glad you agree on my point and not glad about your hgf's. It seems that tuning a derv to it's optimum performance sometimes takes few bitter steps before you actually get there...
I wouldn't start a new thread on my derv but here's a couple of lines if you care to read as you may find out sometimes ignorance is blessed:
I purchased my zed based on thorough mechanical check, diagnostics test and a fair test drive down some curvy roads. Didn't know anything about it's history as original service book doesn't say anything past 30k miles (it was around 65 on the clock, but seemed original mileage)
Immediately it went for a full service including all belts because I didn't know if they' we been done already. Also put a new top ic hose. Specialist said the belts were changed some miles ago but cambelt was one tooth advanced and pump was advanced a couple as well. He suggested new ones should be fitted to factory setting as the engine seems to be in a great shape. So it was done.
Immediately I noticed a positive change in throttle response 3-4k rpm but negative change 1-2k which was annoying to me. Also the rev limit was 4200. Thought it may had a remap and now it's messed up with timing belts returned to oe specs.
Anyway thought I could give it a go with maf sensor cleaning and tightening the tps cable which had some free play.
When I removed the maf I noticed there was a lot of oil and dirt residue, obviously done by an to oily aftermarket air filter. I gave it a thorough clean and adjusted the tps cable.
I went for a ride slowly at first through a couple of traffic lights until i noticed the thing started idling so smooth it was almost unrealistic. After 20 miles or so i thought I'd push the throttle a bit. Found out it would take just a tiny touch at the pedal to get it going comparing to what it was before. Thought ok, it was just the tps cable so maybe I really try it out right now. Boy was I surprised! It pulled so smoothly through the entire rev band and sounded so beautiful and it was now reaching 5300k, maybe not usual for an oe spec. Also a showe in the back felt like a lot more than standard and not usual for a standard one. It was even accelerating better than some bmw 320d which really left the guy in shock but dunno if something was wrong with his car...
So, right now I drive it normally with just slight touch of the pedal and rarely revving it over 3k because I usually don't need to in everyday driving... How much horses are under the bonnet? I really don't care. Was it remapped? Couldn't care less... What do bmw derv owners think of it? I care even less than that. I know I love it and It makes me happy and I really think this is what matters in the end... Don't you think?
peterzs
02-05-11, 05:30 PM
Love my derv to bits, goes fast enough for me.
Have some SDi injectors sitting in a box, but all this talk of the fuel pump giving up, if too much power put through it, has put me off fitting them.
Have to wait and see if I get the "need for speed".
:hooray::hooray::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
teh SDI's will actually take slight amount of stress off the pump - if you ran it to the same power and torque levels as it was before... if you leave the mapping to suit the old ones and get the extra torque then there is no additional difference.
Maybe a little more heat in the pup mechanism - but nothing i would constitute as a risk....
it is amazing how getting a car to run 'right' is so much better than covering up past issues. i just have a slight MAF issue i think; bought a new one and it is a lttle flat sub 200k still - and the timing may have to be slightly adjusted again - it was off when the fuel pump timing solenoid was failing; and as a result was tweaked slightly: could be linked to the sub 2k hesitation.
zsserbia
03-05-11, 01:51 AM
Some say it really is important ''getting it to run right'' as a starting point before doing any mods, especially paying attention to maf sensor and get it sorted by either cleaning or fitting a new one or give it a try with mafam or combining it with a pierburg maf.
When you get satisfactory results and your derv shows some real muscle immediately from 1k then you should proceed with the planned mods and eventually a remap. Otherwise you may learn the hard way a properly running oe spec car is accelerating better than a 150+ bhp tuned one...
No matter how many horses are there if they are tripping each other on the way :horse:
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