180 remap, where and worth it?

[Smokey]

Since reading matties track car thread, it got me thinking.

I have the 180 with working plenum and vis motors, power flow exhaust system, cat back I think, inner wing induction, upgraded clutch, LSD gearbox, HIDs, oil catch tank, sheddist kit and fitting the car PC shortly, so will be turning my attentions to power.

With these mods, what power should I be expecting (with 104k on clock, serviced/belts recently) and is it worth remapping next?

Where locally can I get it done and what is the current price for remap. What power should I expect after it and how does this translate when driving the car?

[Ritchy]

oooft, youve got HIDs? they add a fair few HP :P

[Smokey]

Ha ha, very funny, I was pointing out that there is so much already done to the car!

[Ritchy]

haha:P get some go faster stripes

[Smokey]

I'll save that for the track car :P

[Phate]

Reidy is the man for these isn't he?

[BUCKYDEVIL]

Reidy is the man for these isn't he?

Down South then Yes I think this is the best place, but way up north there isnt much for us.
Expensive but if It was my MK2 180 then this:http://forums.xpowerforums.com/showthread.php?t=60109

Or just send your ECU down to Reidy...

Shame Z&F dont do V6 as Marc runs an amazing service..

[andy-81]

i would say it is worth it with the ecu running everything on a standard map your not gettin the full potential of the upgraded parts , if you have it remapped you can get a few more horses and a bit more reliability plus you never know the guy might be able to get you a few more mpg wich is a bonus

[Quadcam24]

imo i wouldnt bother, i know of some others, and i did my self have a re map before and after going to santa pod. It did nothing, didnt even gain a tenth or 1mph on the top speed. I know some newer graphs show some small gains but they did back then too. But no'one has ever proven a gain against the clock.
The zs ecu can self adapt to breathing mods and 270 cams so its not like its not running right anyway..

[Smokey]

That's also good to know, cheers. What sort of power should I be expecting from the car currently over standard?

[stamford]

I say it is worth it, if anything it tidies up the power delivery when past the power valve opening and you will get an improvement in mpg and high end AFR is sorted as the the stock ecu map is a little flawed here.

Up to you at the end of the day as always mixed opinions on this. I wasn't disappointed and noticed a much better drive when I tracked it from its previous run when on stock map. Never timed it as not that into it just enjoying it for the driving pleasure. Still, it made the ZT260 boys ask what I was running.

Mines been done 3 years now and still pulls well and returns a decent mpg figure.

[Nobrainer]

How does a remap affect the ecu making its own adjustments?

[R1CSO]

expect about a 25bhp. Got my remap done at Reidys, before was 173bhp and after was 198bhp (oe cams). This was at the height of summer and i didn't have a heat shiled for my induction kit (which in my car is located close to the radiator).

[zsserbia]

There must be a power gain, not that you can feel it that much as in a derv (dervs are more affected by a remap). It's true you've got a self-learning ECU, but as said, it just self adapts on breathing values, usually it takes 20 miles of driving to re-learn. All other modifications would require a remap in order to experience the full potential.

[stamford]

The Siemens ecu can only learn a small amount and doesn't have the ability to advance the timing, only to retard it. It can change the fuelling by a small amount to allow for changing weather conditions.

The remap can go beyond this and advance the timing and the AFR until such point you can't go beyond the parameters within the stock ecu.

[Smokey]

I love geek talk :)

[stamford]

I love geek talk :)

:laugh: liar ;)

[Smokey]

:D

[Nobrainer]

And if you change the ecu, for instance to an emerald. Not that I can afford one.

[Captain Slow]

Reidy's don't list any MG's on their site...?:no:

[petet16]

You'd probably be best contacting him directly.

[Captain Slow]

I've dropped him an email, fingers crossed for a reply :)

[Quadcam24]

expect about a 25bhp. Got my remap done at Reidys, before was 173bhp and after was 198bhp (oe cams). This was at the height of summer and i didn't have a heat shiled for my induction kit (which in my car is located close to the radiator).

no offence mate but anyone who knows anything about nasp tuning will be rolling around on the floor laughing their asses off at that claim.
If the car was healthy and had a decent induction kit it should have had 185 bhp to start with ?!?!?
In reality you would do well to make half of that claimed gain without adding other mods.
On a turbo car yes no probs but you cant turn up the boost on a zs 180, all you can do is optomise and tweek and there just isnt the potential for gains like that.

[MG6Turbo]

Got to agree with Dave here.

No engine breathing hot air will make decent power.

As Dave rightly says, nasp tuning is much harder than turbo.

I spent many hours on a rolling road with a zs 180 so i know what does and doesnt work.

No zs 180 will make 198bhp without decent air induction system and cat back exhaust.

As a matter of precaution, we would do a health check on any car we was tuning before any mods took place. The zs needed to be 100% healthy to start with or it wuldnt give the gains.

George

[stamford]

What he probably meant was from stock power figures to breathing mods expect an increase already seen which is half that or more. Then add on the remap increase and you'll be there or there-a-bouts not in one hit as stated.

[Quadcam24]

add a de cat in there george too, and you might just make it.
Wirlys always made good power and thats the spec he had, inner wing induction, cat back and de cat, re map, iridium plugs.
Having said that wirlys car wasn't quite the norm, weve both seen similar modded zs not make that power.
He said he brought it off the guy who brought that 200 bhp btcc replica, the special legit one, i cant remember who built it, was it wsr or mg s & r or similar ?...but anyway the guy said wirlys was noticeably more powerfull than his 200 bhp btcc replica....and that was when it was standard !

[Maxxed_Ross]

I spent a fortune on my last ZS. was running Andrew Morrisons custom carbon fibre induction kit, janspeed manifold, janspeed sports cat and a custom back system.

Made the heady figure of... 183bhp

you've got to have very very deep pockets to tune the kv6, that's the main reason why i went T series for the touring car project

[Quadcam24]

true, it is a bit of a dyno lottery though, you could have made 200 if you had tried a few dyno's.....that just proves how pointless the whole thing is though,lol

[stamford]

Aways nice to read some positives...................

[Fred68]

It's also likely that you can get good and bad engines. That's the problem with mass production!! You never know what you end up with? Sure the engine will run and make some power but the only way to get reliable and consist power figures would be to Blue Print the engine then make it breath better!! In theory a 2.5 Kv6 should make around 240 bhp!! However in the real world that doesn't happen but it should make 200bhp with a decent intake and exhaust and a optimized re-map!!

[peterzs]

What about a squirt or two of Noz!!!!

Just to add to the debate!!!!

:smile1::smile1::smile1:

[Fred68]

I played with Nitrous Oxide quite a lot in the mid 80's. You can make silly power with the stuff but unless the system is set up correctly it can be extremely destructive on an engine. Also with modern computer run engines it's very difficult to make work and it will destroy the Cat in seconds!!

[Smokey]

oooh, I like the sound of that!

What sort of costs would that involve and how much extra stress will the engine have though!?

[zsserbia]

What about a squirt or two of Noz!!!!

Just to add to the debate!!!!

:smile1::smile1::smile1:

Ha!

http://www.torquecars.com/tools/engine-mods-power-gain-calculator.php

I dare you to include NOS, or worse, charger + NOS! :nuke:

[Fred68]

NOS it a trade mark of Nitrous Oxide Systems which is part of Holly Carburators!! It's also nothing like in the movies to use especially in Fast and Furious ;) What it does is add torque so if you have an engine that makes 100 bhp @ 5000 rpm and you add a 50 bhp Nitrous kit it will make an extra 50 bhp so 150 @ 5000 rpm. However it will add the same 50 bhp regardless of rpm so if the engine is turning at say 3000 rpm and is making 50 bhp by injecting your Nitrous at 3000 rpm you still add 50 bhp so now you are make 100 bhp a 3000 rpm!! This is why it can destroy an engine if used incorrectly ;)

[peterzs]

I got 292 bhp and 12.5 sec for the 1/4 mile, for a 180 with all the goodies.

Interesting link zsserbia, Ta.

But it did say buy a new car, you will blow the engine up!!! Which is about right, from what I have heard re. the Noz.

[peterzs]

I put my derv info in and it came back at 162 bhp.

RR was 159 bhp so its quite good at guessing!!!!

[zsserbia]

Yes, fairly accurate, that... I guess they all use some kind of a pattern/formula which involves air intake in cubic feet per minute (CFM) and then compare it with desired modifications which mostly increase breathing...

[MG6Turbo]

I nitroused a zs 180 and a 120.

The 180 made 242bhp at 300ftlb of torque. That's was a 50bhp shot.

The 120 made 182bhp with 210ftlb torque. That was with 50bhp shot.

I ran both cars for many miles and never had an issue.

Both cars ran cats and passed subsequent mot tests after.

I did run a 75 shot in a 180 and it eventually blew but it was fun.

This was without a boost controller. So it means it was an immediate boost.

I used to charge £800.00 supplied and fitted.

George.

[tb steve]

just done the link and mine worked out at 209bhp and a 1/4 mile at 14.9 ha ha

mapping will be worth it if you have the mods
one of my old R/R you can see the extra bhp etc etc as the changes are made

[Quadcam24]

i self fitted a nitrous kit to my 180, it was a wet kit from wizards of nos, which is much safer than the old dry kits, and i never had any problems. You get real big gains which are very obvious.
This is another reason i know re maps are worth next to nothing, because if you fit even a small 25 bhp shot of nos the gains are instantly grin inducing and you suddenly feel like your driving a porsche, this is nothing like when you have had a re-map, when the best you can say is " it feels like it picks up a bit better".


ive known umpteen zs run with mods but no remap and reliability was never compromised, having said that, to back up something stamford said, it seems a fair few zs run a bit lean at the top end when they have had some mods done, so if the afr can be tweeked it can't be a bad thing and will gain you a couple of ponies as an added bonus.

[Quadcam24]

The Siemens ecu can only learn a small amount and doesn't have the ability to advance the timing, only to retard it. It can change the fuelling by a small amount to allow for changing weather conditions.

The remap can go beyond this and advance the timing and the AFR until such point you can't go beyond the parameters within the stock ecu.

i always thought this till a conversation with george a few years back.
Him and ross had taken the supercharger off ross's car then both went in their own zs's to santa pod, georges car was standard, ross's car was now standard because the sc had been removed. They did some side by sides on the way to pod and ross's car was noticeably quicker, being able to pull on georges car every time, which also showed in the times at pod, where ross proceeded to set a time that was incredible for a standard car whilst georges just did what was expected.
Both ross and george told me it was because the car was running massive advance in the timing from having the charger just removed.
Now i dont know one way or the other, but how do you explain it otherwise ?

[stamford]

Well that I cannot answer Dave or even try to!

[zsserbia]

i always thought this till a conversation with george a few years back.
Him and ross had taken the supercharger off ross's car then both went in their own zs's to santa pod, georges car was standard, ross's car was now standard because the sc had been removed. They did some side by sides on the way to pod and ross's car was noticeably quicker, being able to pull on georges car every time, which also showed in the times at pod, where ross proceeded to set a time that was incredible for a standard car whilst georges just did what was expected.
Both ross and george told me it was because the car was running massive advance in the timing from having the charger just removed.
Now i dont know one way or the other, but how do you explain it otherwise ?

It makes some sense if it was remaped with the charger on, leaving a big advance setup to add more fuel. After removing the charger it would still take 20 miles or so to re-learn/retard it... What it doesn't make sense to me is why the performance was better, there was less air to burn additional fuel, right?

A guy that did the belts on my derv said that there was a big timing advance on the pump and advised he should put it back to standard/factory spec. At first the ride wasn't so good and the injectors were ticking a lot. I complained but he explained I should give it a chance for the ecu to re-learn the timing. Upon 20 miles or so there was such an improvement that I wasn't sure if there was a derv under the bonnet anymore! Been smooth ever since, especially after I cleaned the maf. It really sounds beautiful and I really wouldn't mess this now for a bit of performance...

[MG6Turbo]

DAVE you got that the wrong way round.

When the charger was removed Ross car was very slow as the ecu was retarded due to the charger. We wouldn't want it running too advanced as detonation would take place.

However after a couple of days Ross and I did the same runs side by side and this time his car pulled away from mine.

Regy ran a 14.9 std. This I ran after our rolling road recorded the power of that car as 175.9bhp. Totally std figure. I ran that time 4 times so it wasn't a fluke.

The ecu uses the 2 knock sensors to check for detonation. It allows the timing to be as advanced as much as possible and in line with its maximum parameters. Our remap used to increase those parameters in question and allow it to run more advanced but still using the knock sensors to retard if necessary.

G

[Maxxed_Ross]

Now i dont know one way or the other, but how do you explain it otherwise ?


Ross weighs half what George does :tease:

[Quadcam24]

aaah apologies for getting it wrong way round,lol !