Non starter

[welshone]

Tried to start the car this morning and it wouldn't. All dash lights came on and all other lights worked but no engine.

Got home from work and tried again and it fired first time.

It was very cold this morning it was reading -5 in Mrs Welshones 307.

So my question is what could freeze to stop the car from starting?????

[petet16]

Did it turn over, or did you get the solenoid clicking.

[welshone]

got nothing just the lights on the dash. Did hear the fuel pump prime.

[Dave]

Check the small spade connector on the starter motor, probably a bad contact.

Cheers
Dave

[Dan1971]

Mine too yesterday .... Went to take it out just to give it a run. Haven't driven it for a couple of weeks and when I have done, it's just been for a couple of miles. This was after some snow and a couple of very cold nights ...

Click click click ..... Starter or battery ? Read up on it a bit yesterday and I'm hoping that the battery is flat and the clicking is the starter trying, but the battery doesn't have the power to turn the crank .... or so it said .... I have noticed that it was a little slower turning over the last few times ....

[stamford]

Most likely the starter solenoid spade connection, if the battery was dying then it wouldn't have started later in the day.

Dan, it could well be the battery for you as this cold weather will show up batteries that are on their last legs. Give it an overnight charge so it is full, then see how this fares over the coming weeks, if it drops again then it'll need changing.

[carmadbaker]

I would go with Mick and say battery failing. They really dont deal with the cold that well!

[ZS]

...see how this fares over the coming weeks, if it drops again then it'll need changing.

Next week will be the tester! Apparently we on the south coast are looking at a cold snap of temperatures around -15 Degrees Centigrade next week! I'd hate to see how cold the people up north are going to get...

[Dan1971]

Most likely the starter solenoid spade connection, if the battery was dying then it wouldn't have started later in the day.

Give it an overnight charge so it is full, then see how this fares over the coming weeks, if it drops again then it'll need changing.

Ta ... Ain't got a charger and they are £25 in Halfords. Just had a butchers on the bay of E and a new battery with 4 yr guarantee - plenty for me ;) - is only £45. I can see where this is going already .... Jump start this morning when it stops raining to see if it's the battery, then an order later if it is. Cheers ..... And sorry for the hijack .....

[Nobrainer]

I'll preempt the which battery questions www.themgzs.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=23020&highlight=battery

[Dan1971]

Cheers - was going for this one - free next day delivery. Not a fancy name, but power is power isn't it ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251188797318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Nobrainer]

Personally I'd take the bosch. At least you can take it back without a problem should you need to. Free next day delivery too.

[Dan1971]

... Free next day delivery too.

Seriously ... ? Fair enough. Where do I get that discount code ?

[welshone]

OK back to this one. It's a complete none starter now. I've cleaned the connections as advised, I've fully charged the battery and still nothing and i've tried jump leads and still no joy.

All the electrics seem to work but when tried to start there is just nothing from the engine. Any more help would be very much appreciated before I go spending money I haven't really got on items such as the starter motor or ignition barrel.

I must add there where no fault codes found on a scan.

[peterzs]

Reader on it to see if any faults logged up???

Crank/cam sensor??

Plenty of fuel??

Earth to the slam panel and to the gearbox OK??

Is the engine spinning over, or wont it even do that?? If it does spin is it quick or slow??

[talkingcars]

Sounds very much like the starter to me. Mine was working fine and then suddenly nothing, when you turned the key the headlights didn't dim as they should when the starter draws current. RAC came out and push started the car to get me home, next morning it struggled but did fire up so I took the car to the garage, they replaced the starter and it's been fine ever since.

I did notice it was turning better with the new starter.

Try the headlight test on your's to see if it's the starter and jump leads direct to the starter should turn it if the ignition is at fault.

[welshone]

Reader on it to see if any faults logged up??? No faults

Crank/cam sensor??
scan should have picked this up??

Plenty of fuel??
More then enough

Earth to the slam panel and to the gearbox OK??
Check and cleaned

Is the engine spinning over, or wont it even do that?? If it does spin is it quick or slow??
Doing nothing at all.



.

[welshone]

Sounds very much like the starter to me. Mine was working fine and then suddenly nothing, when you turned the key the headlights didn't dim as they should when the starter draws current. RAC came out and push started the car to get me home, next morning it struggled but did fire up so I took the car to the garage, they replaced the starter and it's been fine ever since.

I did notice it was turning better with the new starter.

Try the headlight test on your's to see if it's the starter and jump leads direct to the starter should turn it if the ignition is at fault.

Yep did the headlight test and no dimness to them.

So hopefully sounds like the starter then :)

[talkingcars]

Yep did the headlight test and no dimness to them.

So hopefully sounds like the starter then :)

Whip it out and see if it spins with jump leads on the terminals.

I know a man who works in the parts business, he may be able to get one at a good price.

[peterzs]

Sounds like the starter motor.

Might be worth getting it off and testing it.

Someone on here posted up new ones that looked a good price.

[petet16]

This one
http://www.themgzs.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=23757

[welshone]

Sounds like the starter motor.

Might be worth getting it off and testing it.

Someone on here posted up new ones that looked a good price.

Whip it out and see if it spins with jump leads on the terminals.

I know a man who works in the parts business, he may be able to get one at a good price.

Thanks guys, it's a bit wet out there at the mount but when it gets a little less wet i'll give it a bash. luckily i've got the Mrs Welshone's car spare to use for the next two weeks for work so no major rush at the moment But sooner the better as for the past few days i've been driving around in a pug 307 and a vauxhall agila (or ugila as i like to call it lol) and it's getting a bit depressing lol

[welshone]

This one
http://www.themgzs.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=23757

Thanks for the link :)

[welshone]

Ok back to this lovely problem :/


Just took off the starter and jump leaded it to my battery and to all worked as it should. Motor worked and it popped out like it should.

Put it back on and still no start :(.

I'm going to put a starter button in now at the ignition barrel see if i have a dodgy ignition barrel.

Anymore suggestions of what to check would be great :)

[Dan1971]

Is it turning but not catching, or doing nothing at all ?

[welshone]

Is it turning but not catching, or doing nothing at all ?

Doing nothing :(

[petet16]

Have you tried using a spare jump lead to earth the engine to the body ?

[welshone]

Have you tried using a spare jump lead to earth the engine to the body ?

I'll give that a go now :)

Update::

Just tried and still no joy :(

[Dan1971]

Clueless mate .... sorry.

Have you had the AA or similar out ?

[petet16]

Another possibility is the starter relay in the engine bay fuse box.

[Dan1971]

Haynes manual says -


battery terminal connections loose or corroded
battery discharged or faulty
broken loose or disconnected wiring in the starting circuit
defective starter solenoid or switch
defective starter motor
starter pinion or flywheel ring gear teeth loose or broken
engine earth strap broken or disconnected

[welshone]

Another possibility is the starter relay in the engine bay fuse box.

Checked them, all ok

[welshone]

battery terminal connections loose or corroded

Cleaned and reconnected

battery discharged or faulty

Tried jumping it from another car with no luck.

broken loose or disconnected wiring in the starting circuit

This is my thought but where I have no idea :(

defective starter solenoid or switch

Works when connected direct to battery

defective starter motor

Works when connected direct to battery

starter pinion or flywheel ring gear teeth loose or broken

Could be but how do I check?

engine earth strap broken or disconnected

Checked and cleaned and used jump lead as suggested.


Now it's raining again and back to the drawing board me thinks lol

[petet16]

I think the solenoid on the starter motor may be goosed.

[welshone]

I think the solenoid on the starter motor may be goosed.

Solenoid works straight from battery.

[welshone]

Still no joy with this. Anymore ideas ???

[peterzs]

You put a new battery in the key fob. (bit of grasping at straws).

[welshone]

You put a new battery in the key fob. (bit of grasping at straws).

Tried my both fobs both unlock and lock car but nothing at position 3 on ignition

[peterzs]

For a couple of quid, I'd try a new battery!!

[petet16]

As everything else seems to have been exhausted, the ignition switch would be another possibility.

[welshone]

As everything else seems to have been exhausted, the ignition switch would be another possibility.

Position 1 and 2 seem to work as in the lights come on and i've put a starter button in to bypass position 3 and still no luck.

[petet16]

Maybe time to break out the multimeter and find out what has voltage and when.

[sheldore]

I had a similar problem, with mine changed the battery, worked okay then stopped working again. Turned out I hadn't tightened the positive enough, done that and then the alarm started play up. Sorted all that and now it seems fine, fingers crossed and all that.

[welshone]

Just purchased a used starter in the hope that mine may be faulty.

[peterzs]

Have you tried a jump start lead, from the negative side, to one of the bolts holding the starter motor.

Least it will knock that on the head.

[welshone]

Ok dilemma time for the faint of this car.

I've tried all sorts to try and get this going. With no joy.
I've got no cash until next month.
Insurance is up on the 18th of this month.
Clutch bearing still needs doing but still driveable.
Nowhere off road to store it.
No stored errors on the ECU.

So the big question is do I cut my losses and get rid. Or do I renew the insurance to keep it on the road and keep and fingers cross for a miracle and possible spend a shed load replacing parts one by one???

[Ritchy]

Starter relay is behind the passenger kick panel is it not?

[peterzs]

What about an autoelectrician, should find the problem quick and save buying bits you will not require????

[BUCKYDEVIL]

Personaly if it was mine & insurance etc was due up I think I would start to think about breaking it for parts or cut losses and sell to scrappy,
As suggested by Peter though it might be worth a last chance by getting an auto electrician to have a look at it.
Hate to see anybody throwing good money after bad.
Fingers crossed for you mate.

[petet16]

Thats a bit of blow, have you tried putting it in gear and rocking it to see if the engine rotates.

[Ritchy]

Its a really simple circuit for the starter, i cant see it being anything you cant wire around so i wouldnt scrap it. Hard to diagnose without being there but someone in the know should be able to diagnose in a few minutes

[welshone]

Little update:

Think we're getting somewhere :laugh:


Decided to live wire the starter while on the car and it fired first up time time.

So the conclusion at the moment is that the starter isn't getting a live feed from the ignition systems through the spaded cable on the starter. So what needs to be checked now :/


Don't fancy lifting the bonnet every time I need to start the car :laugh:

[scotttait]

One of the main fuses?

[welshone]

One of the main fuses?

All fuses are ok

[peterzs]

ignition switch??????????????

[welshone]

ignition switch??????????????

I've wired in a push start button to bypass the ignition switch with no joy.

[welshone]

Starter relay is behind the passenger kick panel is it not?

Still not sure where this is if anyone knows :)

[scotttait]

Break in the wire somewhere?

[petet16]

Still not sure where this is if anyone knows :)

The passenger footwell, it's the trim panel in front of the door.

When you say a live wire was that to the solenoid or the motor

[welshone]

The passenger footwell, it's the trim panel in front of the door.

When you say a live wire was that to the solenoid or the motor

The solenoid spade connection that the small red wire connects to. I'll check out the relay tomorrow.

[petet16]

I'll look at the wiring diagram

[petet16]

looking at the wiring diagram in Haynes,it says the starter relay is part of the passenger fuse box from 2003 onward.
Fuse F18 in the passenger fuse box is for the feed from the ignition to the starter relay, and fusible link L12 in the engine bay fuse box is for the power supply to the solenoid

[welshone]

All fuses have been checked so i'll start on the starter relay next before tracing the wiring.

This problem was a on and off problem to start with, does that sound like a relay problem?? Sounds like a wiring problem to me.

[petet16]

It could be chafed wiring, which will most likely be a pain to track down.

If you've got a multi meter and a second pair of hands you can work your way back from the starter solenoid until you find where the power stops.

[welshone]

No update on the car but have renewed my insurance.

Just one question, is the age of 35 the magic year for good insurance prices.

Just reduced mine from about £600 to £320 including break down cover :)

[Ritchy]

mine the relay was playing up contact jammed on so if you turned the ignition on it started up, was water that had got into it

[welshone]

mine the relay was playing up contact jammed on so if you turned the ignition on it started up, was water that had got into it

Mine is soaking wet. Just dried off all the wires and connection and ordered a new one. Hopefully this will be it :)

[petet16]

Mine is soaking wet. Just dried off all the wires and connection and ordered a new one. Hopefully this will be it :)

Was it located on the passenger compartment fuse box ?

[peterzs]

Hope you have found the problem.

[welshone]

Was it located on the passenger compartment fuse box ?

It was down in the passenger foot well behind the trim.

[Ritchy]

Aame with mine. Swap it for one out your main fuse box like heated rear window or something to try

[welshone]

Aame with mine. Swap it for one out your main fuse box like heated rear window or something to try

I looked at them and they seem to be different relays. Different part number any.

[Ritchy]

if its the same size and pin layout should be fine for testing

[welshone]

if its the same size and pin layout should be fine for testing

Just did this and fired up first time :) Just need to wait for the new relays now then I can ride again :laugh:

Big thanks to everyone who helped in getting the car up and running again :bow: :bow: :bow: :thumbsup:

[petet16]

Good news:smile1:

[peterzs]

Rolling Road??????????????

[daytona365]

Thats good news, shows what helpful chaps we all are on ere.........

[welshone]

Rolling Road??????????????

It's not that fit yet Peter :laugh:

[Ritchy]

Good stuff;) least you wont be selling now haha

[BUCKYDEVIL]

WHAAYHAAAY !! Brilliant news.

[andys1981]

good stuff