View Full Version : ZS VVC track car project
OK, I've said for years its not about power, its about driver ability and chassis/cornering ability...so here it is...money where the mouth is...no willy waving of v8's, v10's, turbo's or superchargers here!!!
This is my little shoestring budget project.
A £250 car with a roll cage that hasn't turned a wheel on the road in 6 years. Some of you may recognise it from here http://www.zscentral.com/phpbb/chris-s-lightweight-project-t2802-675.html
The plan is to carry on with what Chris started, with a few changes.
1800 VVC engine - may push the boat out for a remap!!!
The Z&F remap (and I assume superchips one too) raises the rev limiter to 7450, as the torque hasn't dropped off cliff edge, it still makes power, the reports are around 174ish bhp in a healthy engine, a nice gain from the 156bhp it left the factory with, but the factory cars really only revved to 7k (they hit 7300 once for the 0-60 press times, then the ecu would limit it to 7k)
Assuming the remap is worth 170bhp, that equates to a nats whisker off 189bhp per ton.
strip it and the target is 900kg.
polycarb windows, DIY to keep the cost down
plate the hole in the roof where the sunroof was!
Arch work to allow a wide track or wide rims, the car will accept 9J x17" rims running 235 tyres without rubbing on the arches.
It's a real shoestring budget, fortunately many parts that will be used have been donated. These parts were removed from a track car when it was built into a race car, they were removed for a reason, they are junk!!! But hey ho, they are free!!!
Corbeau race seats (I'll exclude these from the junk comment)
GAZ coilovers
Camber adjusters front and rear
accord type R brakes (good, but not lightweight)
The plan is lots of hard work, with minimal new parts. The windows for example will be cut with a jigsaw from an 8x4 sheet of polycarb, this will save money, although the rear window will be formed and fitted professionally.
The car is a mk1, the plan is to mk2 it.
possibly do a hybrid front bumper, a mk2 bumper that mates up to the mk1 lights? - what do you think? not sure myself.
It'll never win on the drag strip, nor the power circuits, but being an 1800, its light up front, so I'm kinda hoping it won't handle too bad.
Target circuit times are:
Mallory, 55.something!
Donington Nat 1m25.something
Oulton Park 2m5.something
maybe a bit atomistic, but its something to aim for.
Time for some hard graft, and most important of all, LEARN TO DRIVE!!! driver coaching/tuition is a must.
Dan1971
28-12-14, 03:59 PM
Awesome plan .... Look forward to reading about your progress with both the car and the learning how to drive it !!!
Sounds a cracking project!
If you need seals for the polycarb windows, I used www.sealsdirect.co.uk for the MGB as we made/fitted our own windows in that.
carmadbaker
28-12-14, 05:05 PM
Got a low mileage decent vvc 160 lump for sale if you are interested? From an '03 TF with 33k.
Was destined for my Lotus but plans changed!
carmadbaker
28-12-14, 05:05 PM
Lotus Elise VVC engine loom too
an area of roof cut from another silver car and pop riveted on.
The union Jack flag should make it go faster...all fast cars have a union Jack!!!? At least it disguises the metal plate a little.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/569_zpse7a0cc13.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/569_zpse7a0cc13.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/575_zps5078debe.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/575_zps5078debe.jpg.html)
282 front brake calipers vs the twin pot 300mm Honda Calipers
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/594_zps7e11f516.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/594_zps7e11f516.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/583_zps78cd649d.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/583_zps78cd649d.jpg.html)
hard work and elbow grease, removing all the sound deadening material, then painting the inside.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/570_zps69361e02.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/570_zps69361e02.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/571_zpsa6cb0315.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/571_zpsa6cb0315.jpg.html)
Chris had hand painted the roll cage with Hammerite.
Lots of work sanding the brush marks out, the only part of the car that has seen a rattle can - the cage!
Trying to paint over rattlecan or hammerite with proper automotive paint requires a barrier to stop reaction.
In this case, it was easier to stick with rattle can type paint, this project is a shoestring budget and I didn't want to spend money on the primers required to stop the paint reacting with poly base/2k.
Word of warning here guys - its better not to go down the rattle can route in the first place. The paint is rubbish and often ends in regret (with the exception of proper 2k paint thats been put in a can for those without spray equipment)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/570_zps69361e02.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/570_zps69361e02.jpg.html)
This is where I'm up to, the MK2 conversion...
I was lucky enough to lay my hands on a 1-piece fibreglass front wing, its not made to the same insanely light weights that are used on the race cars, but beggers can't be choosers, non-the-less, its still lighter than the steel version, super strong and FREE!!!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/697_zps05184037.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/697_zps05184037.jpg.html)
the rest of the kit is standard mk2 stuff
A bit of arch work allows the car to run really low and a really wide track, just to give you some sort of idea, this will run 9" wide touring car rims with 235 wide tyres WITHOUT RUBBING.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/682_zps0edf8ba3.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/682_zps0edf8ba3.jpg.html)
No big spoiler on the boot, the boot (bonnet) aero catches are going where the spoiler would sit...who needs that useless ornament anyway???
Its having a polycarb rear screen, so I wasn't bothered about masking up the glass!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/681_zps7bdd0253.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/681_zps7bdd0253.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/670_zpsc90606d0.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/670_zpsc90606d0.jpg.html)
262 rear brakes fitted too
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/669_zps3cabd604.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/669_zps3cabd604.jpg.html)
It may seem odd having a cigerette lighter in a track car, but its a perfect power supply for a data logger, tyre inflater etc.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/668_zps6a2680f6.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/668_zps6a2680f6.jpg.html)
seat brackets that bolt straight to the mounting holes of the MG floor - that saved a whole load of fab work and messing about.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/580_zps805163f8.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/580_zps805163f8.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/581_zps8666469d.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/581_zps8666469d.jpg.html)
stamford
29-12-14, 07:46 AM
Should make for a very capable car on track. I've diced with a chap running a ZR VVC on throttle bodies, not as quick as the ZS but then I would expect the ZS to handle slightly better.
Oooh I like those brakes. I guess you've not had much chance to test them out yet?
Oooh I like those brakes. I guess you've not had much chance to test them out yet?
not on this car, but I've had the same setup on another ZS a while back, the brakes are very very good, progressive and well balanced as it was designed to work with essentially the same rear callipers and doesn't suffer fade, this setup has been around for years, but only a few cars have bothered with it.
BUCKYDEVIL
29-12-14, 10:24 AM
Nice one Mark, looks a great project and will give many a surprise on track Im sure..
Should make for a very capable car on track. I've diced with a chap running a ZR VVC on throttle bodies, not as quick as the ZS but then I would expect the ZS to handle slightly better.
that sounds like a vhpd 190 conversion - if he'd blanked off the VVC mechs and put a 285 cam in?
The factory built 190's as used in the trophy championship are fast, they got every last bit of out the chassis.
Generally, the front running 190's are a few secs per lap quicker than a ZS, but it all depends who is driving!!!
A cold day today, but managed to cut the front wing and fit the front arch bodykit, just hope it bonds OK in the cold
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/001_zps7f578d6a.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/001_zps7f578d6a.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/002_zps8c359f88.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/002_zps8c359f88.jpg.html)
Just the sills to fit and then onto the front end, bumper, headlights etc.
stamford
29-12-14, 04:31 PM
that sounds like a vhpd 190 conversion - if he'd blanked off the VVC mechs and put a 285 cam in?
The factory built 190's as used in the trophy championship are fast, they got every last bit of out the chassis.
Generally, the front running 190's are a few secs per lap quicker than a ZS, but it all depends who is driving!!!
Apparently the chap has spent in the region of £8k on the engine, as most talk to be taken with a pinch of salt, but you never know. It did sound very good the last time I saw it but considering the amount spent I felt he was seen off as my zed was alot quicker over a lap. As you say, the car is only as good as the one pushing it along. Just highlights that too many focus on power (they forget torque) and see the handling and braking as a secondary feature.
BUCKYDEVIL
29-12-14, 06:06 PM
I've grown to be quite bored with my own ZS for quite a while now and many times would have liked a change but having been offered a pittance in part Exchange or No one wanting to buy a car with an engine swap unlisted with the DVLA
I feel like it's something that's tied to me so can't get rid of.
Will be replacing my wife's car this year and looks likely best thing for the ZS is to make it another Track car
ZS VVC FTW...
talkingcars
29-12-14, 07:06 PM
Register the engine change?
MG ZS STE
29-12-14, 07:38 PM
A £250 car with a roll cage that hasn't turned a wheel on the road in 6 years. Some of you may recognise it from here http://www.zscentral.com/phpbb/chris-s-lightweight-project-t2802-675.html
I skipped to the end of this so already thought it had been MK2'd? Cant believe how much you've already managed to get done, only wish I could work at your speed.
I'm certain it will be a very capable track car when you've finished with it.
Register the engine change?
I doubt it
talkingcars
29-12-14, 10:55 PM
Am I missing something here?
Am I missing something here?
why register the engine change? its a track car, it will be trailered about, whilst I may MOT it and use it on the road at a later date, I'll think about it then, but its still an 1800 as on the log book.
The biggest change is lack of seat belts, rear seats, glass etc!!!
talkingcars
30-12-14, 12:49 AM
or No one wanting to buy a car with an engine swap unlisted with the DVLA
I wasn't talking about your project Mark but this.
I wasn't talking about your project Mark but this.
gotcha!!!
But don't put him off, I would love to see a ZS only race series one day, I think they are cheap, capable and a great basis for a race car!
Fitted the skirts today, I would have painted up a different set had I noticed these ones have the long bracket on them which doesn't leave indentations on the skirt where the short brackets fit! Bit to good for a track car!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/002_zps5a897adc.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/002_zps5a897adc.jpg.html)
Skirts fitted and back on the ground without wheel spacers - it really shows how low it is and desperate for a wider track and wider rims!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/009_zps13f90a7a.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/009_zps13f90a7a.jpg.html)
The proper 160 exhaust manifolds mated up to a 2.25" scorpion exhaust from a rover tomcat of all cars, just needed the centre box hangers relocating.
People go mad paying 500quid for KV6 Janspeeds, yet many VVC ZS conversions just don't bother with the correct 4-2-1 manifolds that the VVC has...they just bolt up the standard 120 mani...I can't get my head around why people cut corners, especially when the VVC mani is for nothing!
(I didn't fit this today, just having a rant!)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/008_zpsda7611bb.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/008_zpsda7611bb.jpg.html)
Bled the brakes again, for the umpteenth time, this time with the calipers off and the bleed nipple pointing northwards - there's either air in the system somewhere or the damn things need a good bedding in, but I don't want to be bleeding brakes on a shakedown
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/007_zps61b7bc91.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/007_zps61b7bc91.jpg.html)
and finally wired up the washer bottle, the car didn't have one when I got it and I may want to fit some brake cooling ducts and the standard washer bottle is right in the way
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/010_zpsaba5316f.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/010_zpsaba5316f.jpg.html)
Loving the washer bottle idea....may have to nick that one off you!
Supercharged_Z
30-12-14, 04:15 PM
love a good project :) must be cold out
stamford
30-12-14, 08:45 PM
love a good project :) must be cold out
Was thinking the same myself. The missus was expecting me to be working on the zed during the break. -4 today so decided to do something warmer!
I had already gutted the doors, today's job; to see if a door card can be fitted to the drivers door with the door release mech.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/001_zps7998fccd.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/001_zps7998fccd.jpg.html)
bit of a prototype, trial fit, seems to work :)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/002_zps7c418986.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/002_zps7c418986.jpg.html)
Next onto gutting the bonnet - weight loss, and what a horrible job this is, it would be easier to make a fibreglass bonnet!!! Cutting through the sealant/bonding is really hard work, then your left with it all to grind off...
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/003_zps9178cdb2.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/003_zps9178cdb2.jpg.html)
Grinding off ready for primer
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/004_zpsd88e6f77.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/004_zpsd88e6f77.jpg.html)
ordered this yesterday, probably the best thing anyone wanting to be 'quicker' can do!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/005_zpsa077d1c0.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/005_zpsa077d1c0.jpg.html)
Quadcam24
01-01-15, 08:34 PM
lsd and semi slicks are the best track mods by miles.
I'll be running full slicks.
slow progress, with only 1 mk2 bumper with bodykit left, we decided its now time to make a fibreglass mould of the bumper bodykit, with another 2 mk2 bumpers with no kit, the fibreglass parts can be added so there are spares.
Gel coat applied, waiting for it to tack off...
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/001_zps15e18398.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/001_zps15e18398.jpg.html)
Fortunately the rear arms I have are complete with spherical bearings, so none of this nonsense with bushes wearing out after 3 months, this is a skunk2 bush.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/499_zps3a913a9a.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/499_zps3a913a9a.jpg.html)
Skillen
02-01-15, 08:52 PM
That bush hasn't done well at all!
Is that from track use or (hopefully not) from road use?
tyres have been mounted to the rims, 2013 clio michelin slicks, the 2013 tyre was the last of that compound before it was revised with a harder compound for the last 2014 season.
They are well used slicks, but these tyres cost pennies compared to list 1b tyres and in the dry are pretty amazing.
The first time I used these tyres was on a completely standard ZS a few years ago, it was a perfect day (hot) and on the snett 300 circuit the times showed 2.27.5 best, but consistent 2.28 & 2.29's.
It was timed by the TDO and the data came through 2 weeks later, thus circumventing the 'no timing allowed on a track day'!
I thought nothing of those times until I recently analysed data for the snett300 and started to question the 2.27 times, wondering if they had been mixed up with an M3 or something.
The data I studied showed how hard it is for some race cars to beat that time...
Now I don't know if the times from those years ago are incorrect or not, but I do remember the little clio slick being amazing.
In the standard ZS it didn't take long to send them thread bare on the edges, the car had no camber!
The moral of this little story is...
Perhaps the best money spent is in sorting out the geo of the car.
Decent camber adjusters (forgetting the kamikaze crap on ebay) fr & rr will set you back 300+quid.
There is so much more of a gain with some geo and grip than there is in some coilovers and lowering the car.
Anyway, in a few weeks time we should get the car out for a shakedown and if the weather's good, we'll see how these old clio tyres do.
The front spat is out of the mould, shame to paint it really, weighed in at 186g.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/003_zps022ce05e.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/003_zps022ce05e.jpg.html)
Front bumper painted and curing.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/006_zps130a3c80.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/006_zps130a3c80.jpg.html)
Headlight refinished
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/005_zps64fdfcc7.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/005_zps64fdfcc7.jpg.html)
No toothpaste or sunfactor 50 has been used in refinishing the headlights!!!
Front end to build up very soon...
The spat looks lovely, don't paint it!!
The spat looks lovely, don't paint it!!
too late, its primered!!!
Got me thinking, the mk2 boot lip spoilers would look damn sexy in genuine carbon fibre, problem with all that vinyl crap is; it looks just that!
talkingcars
06-01-15, 04:45 PM
That is beautiful.
Are you taking orders?
Skillen
06-01-15, 05:28 PM
Got me thinking, the mk2 boot lip spoilers would look damn sexy in genuine carbon fibre, problem with all that vinyl crap is; it looks just that!
Yeah they would!
Maybe a worthwhile venture! I'd have one lol.
getting really close, now, a list of minor things, few of which stop it hitting the circuit very shortly.
Not a mile away from being MOT ready either!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/004_zpsf448196a.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/004_zpsf448196a.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/005_zps3aba0eca.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/005_zps3aba0eca.jpg.html)
a few grommets need painting to fill the parking sensor holes and front washer holes.
Started on the book, which is very good
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/006_zpsf6149542.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/006_zpsf6149542.jpg.html)
Mark, do you have a picture of where you mounted the bolts for the aero catches on the bonnet? I've got a set I'd like to fit and have been pondering over where to mount them.
Skillen
08-01-15, 04:38 PM
Holes in the back may help it to stop acting like a big parachutey piece of plastic :D:D:D
Holes in the back may help it to stop acting like a big parachutey piece of plastic :D:D:D
yep, and the lower bumper being cut out too!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/007_zpsa9fc3ab3.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/007_zpsa9fc3ab3.jpg.html)
ZS Phil
11-01-15, 04:41 PM
Looking really cool :)
:wave:Hi Mark, nice to see my old project is finally going to get finished and get on the track, god knows how many changes it went through, I even gave it away at one point, then got it back :ohmy:. Good luck with it and hope it brings you success, maybe see you if you are at some of the Cockshoot rounds this year.
Plus it's a long time since I posted on here as well lol...
little update;
had been considering a shakedown of the car tomorrow, so this afternoon I got the last major outstanding jobs done:
fitting 2 cheap ebay in car heaters/fans as the car does not have a heated screen and all the heater/fans were stripped out to save weight.
These things appeared to be pretty naff, but I was surprised on a little test run how much heat these actually provide! The fans are useless and it will need some tweaking of the angles to be any use at clearing the screen, and the brackets are utter junk and both broke before they were even fitted, but I was going to brace these anyway as you don't want anything attacking your head when out on circuit.
The car goes OK, its too cold and slippy out and tracktion even in 2nd gear was difficult, but it revs to 7400ish on the rev counter, prob a real 7300 tho.
It blew a fuse as soon as I put the left indicator on, I think its somehow linked to the indicator relay, another job on the snagging list!
Z & F remapped ecu fitted, from a ZR170 race car :)
Refusing to pay a packet for a 2-button sparco steering wheel thingy, and noticing how high they position their buttons, I decided to make a couple, and add a couple more buttons which can be used at a later date for data logging or anything else.
Need to drop in some different coloured buttons to help identify whats what, but you get the idea with all red buttons...
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/024_zpsb81aa382.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/024_zpsb81aa382.jpg.html)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/023_zpsd7fa82f8.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/023_zpsd7fa82f8.jpg.html)
Skillen
29-01-15, 09:46 PM
Mark, just a question on your wings/arches, did you cut extra clearance for your wheels from the arch metal? Looking at when you bonded the kit on, there is a line across the arch and I wasn't sure what it was indicating. Did you do this for the rears?
I only ask as I need more room for mine.
Mark, just a question on your wings/arches, did you cut extra clearance for your wheels from the arch metal? Looking at when you bonded the kit on, there is a line across the arch and I wasn't sure what it was indicating. Did you do this for the rears?
I only ask as I need more room for mine.
The metal front wing is temporary, and yes, there is a lot of arch work for clearance.
This is what the inside of the front wing looks like, the return lip will be trimmed flush before this is fitted, should give you an idea...
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/001_zps27d08b69.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/001_zps27d08b69.jpg.html)
shakedown at a very cold oulton park today.
The car ran without any issues until the last lap! perfect timing, and just a small fix, but all things considered, it went rather well for a car that's not turned a wheel for 6 years!!!
I had put a guestimated baseline setup on the car, hoping it was somewhere in the window, and the day proved it was...
AM - rather wet, so ran on race wets with a wet setup.
The car was very well behaved with the wet setup (not an optimal wet setup) and exceptionally easy to drive. Brakes were being bedded in during this time.
late AM, a dry line was appearing, we kept on the wets, the chassis is kind to its tyres even on a dry line with wets, running 10 secs a lap faster at this point.
PM, changed to slicks during the lunch hour and went back to a dry chassis setup. Once again the car was well behaved and very neutral, at a guess track temp was c3degrees, tyre temps were measured at mid twenties on the front - that's how cold it was out!!! Slicks need 60-70 degrees and we weren't even scratching the surface, an improvement in times showed.
There is another rather fruity setup in the chassis, but it needs a good summers day and a fresh driver for that one, coz it will be tail happy!
BRAKES
The brakes are gob-smackingly good. Better than 4-pots on a ZS I have driven and better than the big brembo's on my daily drive...
No fade, cooking overheating or any of that nonsense, even with cheap EBC Bluestuff pads...
The pedal/brake modulation was fantastic...for me this is the most important thing assuming the brakes work in the first place and something you rarely ever here people mention, why?
There are better brakes out there, for sure, but this is budget stuff, yet the modulation was the best I have experienced.
DIFFERENTIAL/LSD
Oddly enough, the car does not have one. I wouldn't waste my time fitting a type B or a quaife, just can't be bothered, if I was to fit one, it would be a carbon plate diff setup properly.
Anyway, shock horror, there is no diff in this car, yet it barely spins a wheel even pulling out of the hairpins in 2nd gear. (did spin in the rain early on) how/why...suspension!
SUSPENSION
If you've got this far and realised a car with no diff that doesn't spin its wheels, you've probably sussed the suspension works well!
The car corners flat, to the point that I could possibly loose 50lb of spring rate, it doesn't appear to lift a wheel and considering its crappy old GAZ dampers with little damping, if any, it is rather good considering! (not a patch on high end dampers tho)
ENGINE.
Boy, its no V6!!! It revs to 7400 (just over) but it feels quicker changing at 7k rather than revving it out, the data logger will show more info.
It is linear, it does rev, but compared to a V6, it also feels gutless by comparison.
The V6 is loads quicker than a VVC (a v6 with a close ratio gearset), don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
IF, it had the quaife ultra low ratio gearset, it may be a different matter, but it doesn't!
VVC vs V6.
forgetting the torque difference...
Totally different cars, the V6 is heavy upfront and shows it in the corners, especially the low speed twisties whereas the VVC is light up front and is more fruity in the low speeds thanks to it being 80kg lighter up front, the handling is like day and night between the two.
CONCLUSION.
An interesting little project.
You can build a great track ZS for little money if you think about what your doing and ignore the crowd
You don't need expensive fancy brakes, the modulation on this setup is fantastic, and its a bolt on kit!
You don't always need a diff as long as the chassis works. (again, not what the crowd would say!)
As a track car, this is great, it corners at over 1.2g which makes up for its lack of straight line speed, proving that power is NOT everything.
If you have found this interesting and educational, please add some rep.
THE END.
talkingcars
31-01-15, 08:38 PM
What is brake modulation?
What is brake modulation?
the progressiveness of the brakes and the pedal.
Most modern cars are over assisted, so kissing the pedal results in surgical removal of your face from the windscreen.
Some cars are just solid, the pedal doesn't appear to have any feel and sometimes you feel like your standing on it to stop the damn thing.
This setup has great feel, the harder you press, the further the pedal travels and the harder the car brakes/slows, not just going onto the brakes, but easy off them too, its very progressive, just the right amount.
ZS Phil
01-02-15, 09:48 AM
Awesome post, thanks for sharing :) Rep added.
As you know, I'm a newbie MG track goer but a long time MG enthusiast however some of the stuff here is new to me. Got a few questions...
Where you talk about a V6 with close ratio gearset, what ratios are we talking and where are the components from? I've heard of people making a hybrid box using 1.8 gearing in a v6 box, is that what we are talking about here? I did find the gears to be very long on the v6.
What other chassis mods have you done other than the GAZ coilovers?
Can you suggest some spring rates for the V6? I am waiting for some GAZ coilovers to arrive however they need refurb and valving/ spring rates setting up for track and would really appreciate your thoughts on this as you obviously speak from experience... I know you advised against GAZ but they really were too cheap to pass up on.
The brakes you are running, are they the Honda two pots? If so do they use the standard 282mm discs?
talkingcars
01-02-15, 10:38 AM
The closest ratio PG1 gearset is in the 2.0 EFi maestro 8 valve but that is too close, even for a T16 tubby, you don't need 1st to pull away it's that low.
the twin pot accord type R brakes (300mm) and I use a 300mm disc I get machined up.
The suspension bushing is also key to exceptionally good brakes, the two do work hand in hand.
-
Yes, a hybrid box using any available gears, there's lots of PG1 gearset data to sift through and using a gearspeed calculator you can usually find the gears you want based upon tyre radius, speed and purpose. (I just use the lowest 3,4,5 with final avail on a V6)
Spring rates are dependant upon the rest of the car/chassis. Many of the components used in this build are custom made where we can't get good quality parts of the shelf, sadly most decent parts need importing, there is little available off the shelf in the UK that I would recommend.
Spring rates go hand in hand with the rest of the build, the spring rates on this would not work on most other ZS's.
Through the journey of the ZS, - in the early years - I like most asked and valued the opinion of people in the track and race field, looking back, the copy and paste method is not one I would recommend.
I once measured the dynamic changes that happen on the rear suspension, this is really interesting, remove the shock so you can move up and down the hub and see what happens (you will need steel rulers and measuring implements). There are many more things that happen under load that you can't see, but this item does much more than just go up and down! There is a reason for most things on a Honda/MG, and when you look at some of the bushes and understand them, you realise that most of the polybush manufacturers are clueless.
Basic research on forces will educate you on where the stress forces are and this type of suspension, this will help you in choosing where to restrict movement in suspension and as a bi-product you will laugh at why people brace up the cars where they do!
Then it all comes back to driver ability, I can't stress this enough. I couldn't do the job of a trackday instructor, I would go mad and be climbing out of the window whilst on circuit with the 'typical driver', 'they are all like it' I was told by an ARDS instructor I know at Oulton.
Seriously, drive it until you can't drive it any faster and any smoother.
Whilst you are going through the silky smooth driver journey, what you learn about what happens with the vehicle dynamics will help you in the driver skills journey, its a bit like a jigsaw, it will all come together, the understanding of what the chassis is doing through the corners and under braking, and very importantly, weight transfer, as you try to muscle around a circuit a ton of metal with nothing more than a couple of pedals and a steering wheel.
The closest ratio PG1 gearset is in the 2.0 EFi maestro 8 valve but that is too close, even for a T16 tubby, you don't need 1st to pull away it's that low.
some of the early monty/meastro stuff uses different shaft diameters that are not interchangable with the later pg1's.
The diesel and poss the X box was a puny shaft and a std later pg1 shaft which again bought its own issues in that gearsets would not easily interchange.
To play safe for building a hybrid box that can withstand some torque, look at gearsets from brm era onwards
MG ZS STE
01-02-15, 12:55 PM
Awesome post, tried to rep but it just says i need to spread it around before repping you again. must have been the panel filter brah :thumbsup:
anyway, if i ever get into track days (which i would love to do) theres plently of good info here :bow:
Supercharged_Z
01-02-15, 01:14 PM
many moons ago i used to say that the zs did not need a diff. My supercharged ZS generally did not wheel spin at all on track.
When I purchased the VAG ZS, it became apparent that I was probably mistaken. The ability to plant your foot knowing the tyres will not light up was mental. IT would literally drag you around the corner.
However, that was a 300bhp 300 torques mental turbo car, part of me wonders if i could of floored it in the supercharged zs at the same time as the vag zs on a corner and because the supercharged zs was down on power and torque. While I want to say yet just to argue for the sake of it. I generally believe I couldn't, the way the quaiff diff worked was just unreal.
You know what your doing for sure, but don't dis credit a quaiff or even a type B if it comes up cheap enough.
yep, if the car had torque, or if it was to be used in racing, a diff is a must.
From experience, the type B just doesn't cut it.
Not tried a 'quaife', but had similar diffs in other stuff, but they are not a patch on a well sorted plate diff.
I am a big fan of plate diffs, but I wouldn't buy a used one, they need setting up properly and bedding in properly and there's often a reason why there for sale.
Totally agree, if it was a big budget project, a carbon plate diff would be the only choice.
talkingcars
01-02-15, 03:20 PM
I am told the torsen A was better than the b but more fragile - personally I've never tried any diff in a car, just in my 26t crane truck.
petet16
01-02-15, 04:09 PM
Yes, the type A had a habit of shearing the bearing journal off the l/h side
I guess for the lighter and much lower torque generating VVC, the dif is not as critical, but (rally_)Matt runs the quaife on his ZR 160 rally cars (even if they did start life as 25's on the paperwork). Although he did switch to a custom one a friend of his built - although I am not sure if he switched them on all the cars.
I found personally with the diesel and the huge slug of torque they generate, the quaife on the road was one of the biggest differences I found, as I have to be be being really stupid to get the car to understeer now - with the change in suspension, that limit is now even higher than it was before.
Short of driver tuition, the diff is Matt's honest opinion for the gaining the biggest jump in laptime over a 'standard' car/setup if you were to do just the one mod to it.
Either way - really good post, glad to see that you have got what you hoped to get out the car and long may it continue :D
ZS Phil
08-02-15, 04:04 PM
As always, thanks for such a lengthy reply and advice.
I am gathering an understanding of roll centers, roll axis, bump steer etc and appreciate that a "slammed" car isn't necessarily best unless the suspension geometry is compensated for.
I plan to get under the two cars (one currently standard, one lowered significantly) and get measurements to establish where the roll center is on the standard car and exactly how lowering the other one has influenced this.
Once I have quantified it I will then make the decision of compensation (with stiffer springs) or to try and correct (with extended ball joints of appropriate length relative to the planned drop in ride height).
Unless you know of any working diagrams to save me measuring?
It's actually very interesting once you start digging into the theory behind these things isn't it.
I'm sorry to say that I went against your word and got some GAZ coilovers but for the money I paid, I just couldn't pass them up.
They do need a refurb though and some stiffer springs (they came off a 1.8). I was thinking of running the 325 lb/in currently on the front on the rear and getting some 550 lb/in to run on the front.
They normally come with 425 / 225 for the 180 so the above rates should give a slight proportional increase in stiffness without going silly. What do you think?
the twin pot accord type R brakes (300mm) and I use a 300mm disc I get machined up.
Were they the 300mm accord type r 5 stood discs you had re-drilled?
Once I have quantified it I will then make the decision of compensation (with stiffer springs) or to try and correct (with extended ball joints of appropriate length relative to the planned drop in ride height).
Unless you know of any working diagrams to save me measuring?
They normally come with 425 / 225 for the 180 so the above rates should give a slight proportional increase in stiffness without going silly. What do you think?
Were they the 300mm accord type r 5 stood discs you had re-drilled?
Yes, you need to look at the 'big picture' of the car, avoid doing the easy stuff and leaving the difficult bits, it all works together.
There is software available to help simulate chassis, if you are OK with 3D cad software or xyz axis then it could be an interesting project, I wouldn't get too hung up at this point, lower it no more than 10mm and go testing.
No re-drilling, I got them machined up.
springs! Why not fit something like a 425-450 all round as a start point then test it and see where is best to go?
ZS Phil
10-02-15, 02:35 PM
It won't be with CAD, good old fashioned paper and a sharp pencil to make scale drawings. By the time I've learnt how to use CAD, I could be finished!
Who did you get the blank discs from?
Only trouble with getting the accord type r discs re drilled is the center bore is too large (70mm instead of the required 64mm). There are other 300mm honda discs with the correct 64mm center bore however they are then too thin (25mm as opposed to the required 28mm). Either way its a compromise so getting some "blank" accord type r discs would be best then get the 64mm bore and 4x100 studs drilled.
I don't use a 28mm disc, the calipers weigh enough without adding extra weight to the discs.
I wouldn't recommend a narrower disc to the majority, but for those savvy enough to monitor pad wear they are fine, anyone with a decent maintenance programme of a track or race car will be changing their pads way before they hear the grinding of metal!
The discs I use cost me about £110 a pair by the time they are machined up correctly. Bit of a faff but the finished product is good.
Its easy to get hung up over a lot of things, a big budget project would have a bespoke braking system, a budget project needs a functional and safe system and maintenance after every track.test/race is essential at any level.
ZS Phil
10-02-15, 02:51 PM
Fair enough, seems logical :)
You got a contact for the disc supplier? There is a local machine shop I can use to do the rest.
you can buy the discs and pad shims from vulcan racing.
well, 2 test days on and I can honestly say (tongue in cheek) this is the most unreliable car I have ever owned!!!
Oulton Park resulted in the diff bearing collapsing and the gearbox dumping its oil!
Luckily this happened just as the car pulled in to the pits, so no issues with the box internals, they will live to see another day in a close ratio v6 box somewhere, but playing safe, time to bin the diff.
Silverstone resulted in the engine putting a rod through the block, I have seen enough engines let go on race days and trackdays, and plenty of porkas catching fire, but I have never seen the amount of smoke that this produced, the silverstone wing, usually a visual landmark, was nowhere to be seen.
They say things come in three's, hopefully this is the last!
Massive thanks to the marshals, the old boy (retired) in charge of the crane/lorry was lovely and next year will be his 50th year in marshelling for motorsport, these guys are paid a modest wage for trackdays, but work as volunteers for race days/weekends and are very worth of thanks and gratitude, without the efforts of the marshals motorsport would either not exist, or only be a 'rich mans' sport.
Experience tells you when things go pete tong and the car looses fluid, get off the circuit as fast as you can (even coasting the thing) and head towards the nearest fire marshal if you can see one, certainly with this much smoke pouring, there was a potential fire hazard, in this case I was also lucky enough to pull up along side the recovery truck.
No loss of track time for anyone else because the car was well out of the way, happy days :)
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/16759930826_dcc0fb7efa_k_zpsilssqrra.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/16759930826_dcc0fb7efa_k_zpsilssqrra.jpg.html)
The hole in the engine...the big issue with engines that blow their head gaskets is sometimes they get hydrolocked and kink a rod, quite often so minor it can't be measured, but the kink is now a weak point and on a stressed engine its only time until it fails, we think this may have been the case with this motor.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/16578528137_f4bfe5b2f8_k_zpsmmdgbdkm.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/16578528137_f4bfe5b2f8_k_zpsmmdgbdkm.jpg.html)
a bit of exhaust manifold porting before silverstone, what a way to weld, only rover could do it so badly, rather than weld around the outside, they weld the inside, thus reducing flow, its worth a couple of 'free' hp opening this up, and we all like free horse power!
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/16598422930_5416cd0fb9_k_zpsjijfzqit.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/16598422930_5416cd0fb9_k_zpsjijfzqit.jpg.html)
I know this ones been done loads before, but it gets rid of that stupid parachute style mk2 bumper, smooths out airflow and tidies things up a little
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/16165864343_7495c519f9_k_zpsyrurrlij.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/16165864343_7495c519f9_k_zpsyrurrlij.jpg.html)
and what's not been done before, and I not counting that crappy ebay stick-on vinyl, is a carbon fibre rear lip spoiler, many thanks to a Jamaican fellow and friend I know who still works carbon fibre bike parts and used to build carbon fibre canoe's so light you could lift them with your little finger.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/mark_smg/16599853609_d981993f19_k_zpsqxlrxkbw.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/mark_smg/media/16599853609_d981993f19_k_zpsqxlrxkbw.jpg.html)
we put a new box in after it failed at oulton, lucky enough to pickup a quaife straight cut gearset with a quaife diff - not my preffered choice, but it was in the box!
ultra close ratios, the car was revved out done hanger straight in 5th at 7300 and was doing an accurate data-logger/gps speed of 115mph.
The ratios have really bought an underpowered car to life and made it quite 'fizzy', I often say the best mod for a v6 is a close ratio box that can be built with std pg1 gearsets (often poo-poo'd because people don't like the idea of a revvy motor) but the VVC is no exception to ultra-close ratios.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/533/19087045200_da07050d51_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/v5E6yd)
baffled sump laser cut and tacked in place, hopefully this will keep the oil where it needs to be.
...................................
crash bar, a very simple idea, made from alloy and padded up to the eyeballs, designed to absorb an impact and disperse, it has to be a million times better than those crash cans which do little more than puncture holes in your bumper!!!
I have named this the 'woodward bar'
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/492/19088502169_0a4dc92732_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/v5MyEn)
and fitted
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/546/18654077953_e1cf69335d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/uqp2tF)
engine should be built up soon using the n-series/chinese oil rail, gasket, bolts etc.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/509/18652470544_45c5106bcb_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/uqfMDJ)
exhaust now blasted so the welds around the outside will stick
and linished
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/438/19087356938_b5f2c10439_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/v5FGe1)
It would have been easier to buy a janspeed 4-2-1, but I am trying to build a car that is universal and some race series insist on standard manifold and downpipe but allow removal of internal welds.
Skillen
29-06-15, 08:30 PM
Some nice looking work going on there!
Especially with the new box you have, sounds like it has made it more fun.
Close ratio sounds good but I do so many mway miles it wouldn't seem to make sense lol.
Did you glue your Clio diffuser to your bumper? Or is it held well enough underneath?
Also, is the left hand hole filled in or did you just leave it?
Sorry for all the questions just nice to get an opinion on it as Pete posted about it too and mine has arrived now and my 4" tailpipe is way too big so will have to decide on twin or single soon.
there are numerous brackets welded to/hung from the wheel well and rear arm cross member, the diffuser just hangs off the brackets
Skillen
29-06-15, 09:25 PM
there are numerous brackets welded to/hung from the wheel well and rear arm cross member, the diffuser just hangs off the brackets
So not attached to the bumper at all? I thought it may wobble and flap about more with less rigidity but if it stands up in racing I guess not.
I'll get to work on it soon I think but more pressing things like sorting the brakes and the tyres have cropped up.
no, not attached to the bumper in any way, they are fairly rigid if secured in the right places, the biggest problem is the expansion of a stainless steel exhaust, which expands by at least an inch when hot and starts melting the plastic diffuser!
Skillen
29-06-15, 09:38 PM
I guess a flush fitting one should be avoided then lol.
Thanks for the help :)
Great project, really good to see someone putting in the time and making it right. Great cars once you do this, fantastic reading about it
It'll never win on the drag strip, nor the power circuits, but being an 1800, its light up front, so I'm kinda hoping it won't handle too bad.
Target circuit times are:
Mallory, 55.something!
Donington Nat 1m25.something
Oulton Park 2m5.something
maybe a bit atomistic, but its something to aim for.
Time for some hard graft, and most important of all, LEARN TO DRIVE!!! driver coaching/tuition is a must.
just a little update, we (myself and racing driver Pete Burchill) went to Oulton park with the vvc track car, I did a 2m05:06 on old worn tyres and just after lunch with 90kg of passenger ballast a 2m05:85, there was probably a 2m04 in the car but we didn't get chance to try for it due to the day being cut short.
my 2m05 optomistic target was spot on and the car felt good.
We will be racing this car in the British Motor Heritage 4 hour relay race with the MGCC - I'm sure skyblueleads will provide more info.
Fingers crossed it would be nice to see a 1m31 on the snett 200 circuit, its a bit of a power circuit and we'll struggle on straight line speed as the car revs out in 5th at 115mph, so we'll both be learning to drive just off the limiter at 113/114mph down bentley straight!
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.