BEWARE of this Rogue breakers yard!!!

[dave23572]

DO NOT buy ANYTHING from "Rover Breakers in Hull"

Phone: 01482 225821
Their website: http://www.roverbreakerslimited.com/
They also operate on eBay.

I recently bought a KV6 engine from them.
It was advertised as a ZS180 engine from a 2004 Mk2 with 39000miles shown on the donor car. Sounded great so I went for it as my engine failed.
What was received has turned out to be a pre-2002 2 litre Rover 75 engine with the engine number ground off to hide it's origins. The only way I was able to even identify which KV6 variant it was was by taking off a cam cover and reading the inlet cam part number (LGC000130).

I was totally ripped off, but I'm not alone, just look at the following links below! They are what you would call rogue traders, and that is putting it mildly.

I know I probably won't see my money again, though of course I'm going to be going through several channels to try.

Check these out:-
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=646537
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=498435
http://www.yell.com/biz/rover-breakers-ltd-hull-7744951/#

[stamford]

Thanks for the warning. Hope you get it sorted but such cases as these they tend to get away with it and spring up somewhere else.

[petet16]

They feature regularly in "avoid at all costs" posts

[talkingcars]

I'm sure they used to be called Viking, ripped me off 15 years ago.

[theboynoz]

Read this on the book of face earlier or yesterday, will bear it in mind when shopping for more parts!

[slacko]

Seen Warnings on different places about this mob, avoid at all costs.

[dave23572]

How are they still in business?

[top_man_eldo]

I've been following your posts regarding this on Facebook - you could more than likely take this to a small claims court and win the case.

They have sold you an item that was incorrectly advertised and with a ground-off engine number (which I believe to be a legal requirement), as you say, more than likely to hide the origins. The engine number forms part of the V5 certificate for the vehicle, so you should notify the DVLA of the replacement engine number at the time of the swap, but obviously you can't as it has been deliberately removed!

Surely this could also invalidate your insurance (if you wanted to be picky about it!) as the car isn't a 2.5 litre like you would have insured it for!

If it was me I'd be threatening them with legal action and getting legal advice as well as keeping record of all contact with them - it's a miss-sold product on their behalf which you have purchased in good faith, they have tried to hide it by removing the engine number and they obviously won't refund you, right?

My only concern would be if they issued a contract at the time of purchase, stating that all goods must be checked for compatibility/be fit for purpose etc prior to fitment (or something along those lines).

There's always Judge Rinder?! And he doesn't like big fat porky pies!

http://i2.cdnds.net/14/51/618x412/uktv-judge-rinder-1.jpg

[andys1981]

yip i had a thread on these guys a few years back,when i was gonna buy a gearbox,they were first in with quotes and phone calls etc,done a little homework and there reviews are pretty bad,sorry to haer of your troubles hope you can get it sorted.

[BUCKYDEVIL]

There's always Judge Rinder?! And he doesn't like big fat porky pies!

http://i2.cdnds.net/14/51/618x412/uktv-judge-rinder-1.jpg

Naw he just loves big fat Boaby...

[petet16]

No need for a rocket scientist to figure out why the engine number has been ground off

[dave23572]

The situation I'm in is this:-

They have actually verbally offered a refund on the engine, though from what I've read I have no reason to expect that refund to be given.

The trouble is, the engine is in the car. They said they would refund the engine but not cover the labour costs to get it out of the car.
The labour costs are about the same as the value of the refund, so cancel each other out, leaving me worse off, and with a useless car with no engine.

I could try the small claims court, but I suspect that wouldn't recover the labour costs either, leaving me in the same situation.
It's the same with my credit card company.
They can recover the engine price but the product has to go back.

During yesterday's heated phone call with this scum they just fobbed me off with: "Your car is running isn't it? What's your problem?".
And they also tried to shift the blame onto my mechanic by saying: "Why did he fit the engine if it wasn't right".
No mention of the fact they charged me £530 for a 39K ZS180 engine and supplied an old 2-litre Rover 45 engine with engine number ground off.

I won't call them again as it's futile.
But I will be reporting them to Trading Standards and any other relevant body.

Anyone want to guess what a 2.0 litre ZS"180" with unknown engine mileage and no engine number will be worth?
The square root of f--k all that's what!

And I took the opportunity to have a lightened flywheel fitted, what a waste.

Even though I bang on regularly on forums about the tragic number of ZS' getting broken for parts, I find myself staring down this barrell now.
I can't afford to get yet another engine now.
I may have to strip off my Janspeed manifolds, Janspeed sports cat, custom exhaust, ITG, TTV lightened flywheel, MGF steering wheel, refurbished wheels , sheddist clutch hydraulics, catch tank and trackday tyres and sell what's left of my pride and joy for parts/scrap.

NO!
Even now I won't do that, I've spent far too much time and money on my car to do it. I'll just have to drive a 2-litre 180 and save up until I can afford a recon engine or perhaps have my original engine reconditioned.

[petet16]

What happened to the original engine ?

[Mark S]

£530 for a 39K ZS180 engine .

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much!!!

[Mark S]

why not drop the old v6180 cams into the 2.0v6, you may be surprised, you may find it tunes quite well...

2.0kv is quite an interesting engine with its wide bore and short stroke

[top_man_eldo]

I see your point, and clearly this isn't a good situation you're in! Are you able to remove and fit an engine yourself? Understandably you want the correct engine in your car - if you're able to source a known good 2.5 engine I have no problem helping you remove your 2.0 engine and putting in a 2.5. You're probably the most local to me on here anyway. I have all the tooling here including hoist, it's your call.

[talkingcars]

.....I have no problem helping you remove your 2.0 engine and putting in a 2.5. You're probably the most local to me on here anyway. I have all the tooling here including hoist, it's your call.

I see a forum engine fitting session coming up, let us know where and when and I'll see if I can help.

[p_b82]

I believe you should be able to claim the labour costs back on the small claims court request, as that is an additional cost incurred as a result of their miselling of the product.

Or you just factor in stress, inconvenience, loss of earnings while chasing all this to bring the cost up to the labour amount - there are many ways to skin a cat as they say.

But on the flip side, this is what I love about this forum, when people are in a bind there are almost always people nearby(ish) who are offering to lend a hand and sort things out for people - you don't tend to see that on the FB groups, so long live the forum :D

[ian zs180]

Hope it all works out in the end for you buddy

[dave23572]

I probably could re-fit and engine, I've done it in the past but only on Minis.
But these days I don't have the time or the facilities to do it myself.

I've found a good sounding ZT190 engine that I may buy and get fitted.
Then I'll return the engine for refund and if the refund does not arrive I'll get my credit card company to get the money back. I've already opened a dispute with them.

I'll lose the engine fitting labour charges though, can't see how I'll ever get that back now.

[talkingcars]

The offer is there, I have an engine hoist and between us all the tools you may ever need.

[dave23572]

Where are you based?
How much?

[talkingcars]

I'm in Horsham but I'd come over to you.
So would Top Man Eldo but he also has a hoist.
Not sure who else we could rope in 0 offers welcomed.

A few bacon rolls and coffees will be payment enough for me.

[top_man_eldo]

I'm in Horsham but I'd come over to you.
So would Top Man Eldo but he also has a hoist.
Not sure who else we could rope in 0 offers welcomed.

A few bacon rolls and coffees will be payment enough for me.

+1 that!

What's your setup? Driveway or decent sized garage?

[dave23572]

Horsham? I have family there, I go there fairly often.

I'm in South Woodham Ferrers near Chelmsford, Essex.
Driveway is a reasonable size but is gravel so would need some wooden ramps or something for a hoist to slide over, won't work on gravel.
Garage is way too small to use as only a single.

Driveway is rather narrow though, though I could get permission from my neighbour to use both sides of the shared driveway. Do you need access to the wheel arches for an engine swap? On a Mini you do because you have to take suspension apart to pull out the drive shafts and lift out the engine/gearbox as a whole, not sure on a ZS, I guess you just separate the engine from the gearbox.

How quickly do you think an engine swap could be done, with a couple of experienced guys?

I'm experienced enough to really get stuck in rather than just watch if you get me, so may only need one other experienced guy, unless of course the whole forum wants to come along for bacon sarnies! :-)

Also, quick question on my engine sourcing:-
Is this a good opportunity to go for a ZT190 engine, which has better inlet cams?
I think the sump is different on a ZT but that can be swapped.

[top_man_eldo]

Horsham? I have family there, I go there fairly often.

I'm in South Woodham Ferrers near Chelmsford, Essex.
Driveway is a reasonable size but is gravel so would need some wooden ramps or something for a hoist to slide over, won't work on gravel.
Garage is way too small to use as only a single.

Driveway is rather narrow though, though I could get permission from my neighbour to use both sides of the shared driveway. Do you need access to the wheel arches for an engine swap? On a Mini you do because you have to take suspension apart to pull out the drive shafts and lift out the engine/gearbox as a whole, not sure on a ZS, I guess you just separate the engine from the gearbox.

How quickly do you think an engine swap could be done, with a couple of experienced guys?

I'm experienced enough to really get stuck in rather than just watch if you get me, so may only need one other experienced guy, unless of course the whole forum wants to come along for bacon sarnies! :-)

Also, quick question on my engine sourcing:-
Is this a good opportunity to go for a ZT190 engine, which has better inlet cams?
I think the sump is different on a ZT but that can be swapped.

Access to both sides would help, as the drive shafts need to come out and a small bit of suspension work required as well.

To be honest everyone would do an engine swap differently, I went to town with mine really, by removing the front bumper and radiator and the whole of the front suspension. Extra work involved but I think in the long run it made it much easier for me!

I removed the engine and transmission together as one piece. I was replacing both anyway, but even so I think this would be the easiest way to do it.

I'm not so certain on time taken to remove, I'm sure it will vary from engine to engine. It did take me a day to remove my engine though, I'm sure others could do it quicker, others slower. This was my first attempt, on my own as well and in fairness everything came off quite easily. It took longer for me to refit than remove, without a doubt.

I can't advise you on going for a ZT 190 engine, I see your logic in that as I did consider it myself but in fairness I found a recently rebuilt ZS engine quite local to me and fitted that instead. Someone else may be able to give you the details of the exact differences between the two engines.


***By the way, it maybe an idea to name and shame them in that section of the forum!***

[dave23572]

There's a name and shame forum?

[top_man_eldo]

http://www.themgzs.co.uk/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=97

EDIT... Looks like someone else has had issues before you!

[dave23572]

I spoke to the crooks yesterday, they offered a partial refund if I returned the engine by THIS Saturday! And only then if they were sure it was the same engine! We we already know that outcome don't we?

When I mentioned that if I didn't get a full refund I'd go through my credit card company, they said (and I quote): "in that case there'll be someone on your doorstep to take your car"!

I have all that recorded.

The guy is called "Adam" (quotes used intentionally) though from his accent I very much doubt that's genuine.

What kind of low lifes are these people?
Am I going to get heavies visiting me if I take this any further?

[BRMFUN]

I would pass this to the credit card company and they can deal with this scum from now on, I would not even call them again!

[dave23572]

Yes, but what if they "send the boys round"?

Even with right on my side, I don't need that for me or my family.

[petet16]

It just goes to show what sort of "business" they're really running

[talkingcars]

I would be tempted to contact the police as they have sent you what could be a stolen engine and now threatened you, if they ask why there was a delay in reporting it is because you fitted the engine and then went to get the number changed on the V5.

[top_man_eldo]

As above, I think you've now got all the evidence you need.

[WXM Matty]

Sorry to hear your horror story, I would pursue this. As said above inform the police as well!

[Dan1971]

Everyone might advise the police to be informed - small claims etc - but you're the guy that has to make the decision and consider all consequences. The police will give reassurances etc, but if anyone ends up getting charged you will be the one in court pointing the finger.

It takes great courage sometimes to come forward and be a witness to a case.

I also encourage you to make a report of your suspicions, but accept that there are potential risks of reprisals.

The other option is to put it down to experience. Get the number checked perhaps, but right it off.

Tough one, but you'll make the right decision in the end.

[talkingcars]

Good advice from Dan, especially as he is the closest thing we have here to the police. I would have thought the mere thought of possible police involvement should produce results.

[dave23572]

I've pretty much decided to give up on any hope of getting my money back now, or taking the matter any further.

The guy inadvertently revealed on the phone the technicality they will use to avoid refunding any money. They said there is a hidden mark on the engine (which I don't believe) that proves it came from them. If I returned the engine I'm almost certain they will say "that's not the engine we sent you", "You've sent us some 2.0 V6 engine". And the stinker is, I won't be able to prove otherwise.

If I get my refund by raising a credit card dispute, the engine has to go back, and they will say the same thing. They could even raise a case against me claiming I'm trying to defraud them, by buying a cheap 2.0 engine and using it to fraudulently claim a refund. This is not to mention the threat they made if I went through the credit card route.

These arseholes know every trick in the book to get away with what they do and make lots of money by charging for good sounding spares and selling people junk. They are well practiced in this deception.


The other reasons I do not want to return the engine are:-
1. I already know I'll never get any of my money back, so I'd be worse off, with a useless car with no engine in it.
2. If I return the engine they will simply sell it again, probably advertised as every variant of a late low mileage 2.5 KV6 there is. Whichever advert the next mug responds to, they'll get my 2.0 engine with no engine number.

We know a lot of the junk they sell gets returned and refunds are rarely if ever given. I strongly suspect these returned spares are regularly re-sold. Possibly the same spares are sold, returned, re-sold, returned and re-sold several times over. With them making money on selling the same junk several times.
For all I know my engine has been through this process many times, and would have continued to until someone didn't notice the difference.

It pains me, it REALLY pains me, but on advice I think I'll have to drop it now.
Ultimately, if this ever went to court, I actually doubt that even with right on my side I would have an iron clad case.
There's always a technicality they will use. I mean, can I PROVE the engine in my car is the one they sent, rather than one I sourced separately? The answer is NO and If you want to take these things that far, you must have a cast iron case. And there's always the chance of repercussions for you or your family. A threat has been made, and this isn't worth the risk.

This is why these kinds of people get away with what they do and why they are still in business. They sleep peacefully in their beds at night, without a shred of regret about their ill gotten gains. This is because they have no conscience, no morals, they don't play by the rules.

I will be reporting them to Trading Standards, though I don't have much confidence in any worthwhile action being taken.

I'm not a violent man, but one of these days they are going to rip off the wrong person, someone who will think nothing of driving to their premises in Hull and tearing up the place. And they would deserve it. I only hope that person doesn't get into trouble themselves.

If I were a hacker, I'd hack their website and put a warning up on their homepage.

The way forward for me now is to put it all behind me.
I will have to write off the approximately £1200+ I've lost.
I'm going to have to live with a 2.0 ZS until I can save up to get another engine. This debacle has cleared me out financially and ruined my ZS, but I will stay faithful to the old girl. Even though I have more reason than most to break it for parts, I won't be doing that, as so many seem to be these days.

Thanks for listening and thanks for all the advice and offers of help.
It's very much appreciated and shows what these sorts of forums are for.

[Dan1971]

Trading standards is a good call.

Even - dare I say it - one of the motoring magazines like autoexpress. They regularly feature things like this, but again, you need to consider all outcomes and you have taken a very wise stance in my opinion.

I'm very confident that you car can be put right with a good sound engine from perhaps a foum car - Smokey is breaking his I think - and the help of the forum - whether it be advice on threads such as this, and/or physical help by turning up for a good natter, some hard work and a bacon buttie.

:console:

[BRMFUN]

Well done for moving on! And well done for
not breaking the ZS :)

[ZS]

If I were a hacker, I'd hack their website and put a warning up on their homepage.

Ha... hmmm... :hmmm:

[dave23572]

Well what do you know?
My 2.0 ZS has now failed it's MOT on emissions!

Probably overfueling due to the wrong engine for the ECU.

[talkingcars]

What were the readings?

I think there is a 2.0 V6 Rover 75 at the breakers near Crawley, GW&G Bridges, might be worth giving them a call.

[mattyprice4004]

I'd take it to Small Claims for the loss of value to the car - you'd probably win (you'd at least be awarded something, I'm sure) and could keep the engine.