View Full Version : Disappointing dyno result.
Skillen
30-09-16, 12:36 PM
Went looking round for someone who can map the mods to the car in hopes of some power and no one could but the last guy said let's see what it can do now so I couldn't refuse lol.
I was so excited to see what the mods could do unmapped and get a baseline before a map is done.
Mods are as follows:
ITG Maxogen (recently serviced)
Piper 270 cams (pulleys not fitted yet they're in the drawer)
Janspeed manifolds
Decat
Piper mid and backbox.
I was expecting a decent result from the mods, the car feels good and seems to give newer stuff a go so I was optimistic.
The result:
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh142/cskil/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsbsyuxgfg.jpg
What have I been doing the last few years?
All for this?
I'm gutted guys.
I don't know what's going to happen next now where do I start?
So disappointing and disheartening.
At least it sounds alright
https://youtu.be/iQJ_n93HT_c
(Couldn't embed sorry)
stamford
30-09-16, 02:03 PM
Certainly not right. Even the rpm to final figures are different to mine, guess that's the cams doing that? However before mine was mapped it made 191 so quite where yours have gone is something else. You really need to get it mapped, should be seeing close to 210 with those mods.
Lukeus101
30-09-16, 02:08 PM
What are the VIS like? :(
Skillen
30-09-16, 02:35 PM
Certainly not right. Even the rpm to final figures are different to mine, guess that's the cams doing that? However before mine was mapped it made 191 so quite where yours have gone is something else. You really need to get it mapped, should be seeing close to 210 with those mods.
He pulled up a standard one that had been there and it was only 7bhp behind me. A fair bit behind in torque though late in the rev range where the cams kicked in, I was behind in the lower revs in torque and power.
What are the VIS like? :(
I seem to be able to feel them kicking in fine as I put two new ones not too long ago but I will test them again soon, I'll have to get my name back on the list again
start with the vis, either they're not working or the cam timings way off
Unfortunately these things never go to plan
ZS Phil
30-09-16, 04:54 PM
"I seem to be able to feel them kicking in fine as I put two new ones not too long ago but I will test them again soon, I'll have to get my name back on the list again"
If you and your mrs fancy a trip to blackpool you are more than welcome to pop round and use my ACR4 which will not only test the VIS motors but virtaully every other actuator and throw up any fault codes.
That aside, are you sure the mechnaic who fitted the cams knew what he was doing as didn't you say he couldn't work out how the verniers fitted hence why they are not on the car.
Skillen
30-09-16, 05:02 PM
start with the vis, either they're not working or the cam timings way off
I will do, didn't think they could cause a big deficit
Didn't think about the timing! That would be easy (for someone else)
If it is that I could get the cams timed in.
I'm wondering if I even have the 270's fitted!
its really below 5k that things look bad, hence looking at vis.
just noticed...
no cat & no precat???
does it have a dodgy mil thingy???
Skillen
30-09-16, 05:23 PM
just noticed...
no cat & no precat???
does it have a dodgy mil thingy???
No cat or precats no.
No dodgy MIL eliminator, I just clear the light with an old scanner every so often but it's often got the light on for a while before I do.
Ok the below five thing makes sense, thanks.
I do feel a kick at just before 4k so that seems to correlate a little on the graph.
question is, how happy is the ecu with that.
the ecu has adaption channels, have a think about the parameters the ecu sees and how it adapts to the sensor voltages it sees and adjusts for these as well as general engine wear.
personally I'd fit a 100cpi cat minimum sort the vis if they aren't working (and they don't look like they are) and reset the adaption channels.
I think you may be confusing that kick you feel just over 4k with the natural intake pulse length harmonics that happen, looking at the graph I'd say no working vis and its just pulse length your feeling.
Cam timing is out. Piper don't put the keyways in the same place as std cams
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
What's the wheel power showing on the dyno? Wouldn't even bother looking at the corrected figures
Skillen
01-10-16, 08:48 AM
"I seem to be able to feel them kicking in fine as I put two new ones not too long ago but I will test them again soon, I'll have to get my name back on the list again"
If you and your mrs fancy a trip to blackpool you are more than welcome to pop round and use my ACR4 which will not only test the VIS motors but virtaully every other actuator and throw up any fault codes.
That aside, are you sure the mechnaic who fitted the cams knew what he was doing as didn't you say he couldn't work out how the verniers fitted hence why they are not on the car.
Just seen this reply sorry Phil,
That could well be a plan at some point, I'll have to see what the calendar is like lol! Sounds like an awesome bit of kit!
I'm not so sure now on the mechanic! Thought he would be fine as a lot of people use them where I'm from but maybe he got it way wrong and it's out as a lot are saying and he's screwed it up!
Cam timing is out. Piper don't put the keyways in the same place as std cams
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
Ok that sounds like something to look at then.
If those are different does that mean to use the standard timing marks or not?
I've never timed an engine before but is there any pictures or what should I be looking at to have a quick check.
What's the wheel power showing on the dyno? Wouldn't even bother looking at the corrected figures
I'm not sure tbh with you. That's the figures I got given so I don't know the wheel figures sorry.
interesting the point where hp and torque collide...
did you see the car rev out on the tacho?
was the guy watching the dyno screen revs to rev out or your tacho?
did the engine hit the rev limiter?
Cam timing
If those are different does that mean to use the standard timing marks or not?
I've never timed an engine before but is there any pictures or what should I be looking at to have a quick check.
even the timing piper say they should be timed to is not really in the zone and not the sort of timing an expert would put on the motor.
most people time them up with the standard rover timing tools as so few people have exhaust side verniers.
the rover timing tools way of timing does not produce a graph like that, but I think the comment above may have stumbled across something interesting
Skillen
01-10-16, 08:54 AM
interesting the point where hp and torque collide...
did you see the car rev out on the tacho?
was the guy watching the dyno screen revs to rev out or your tacho?
did the engine hit the rev limiter?
Should be 5252?
It sounded like it hit the limiter each time to me, I didn't see the tach or the dyno screen tbh. Didn't know to keep a eye on it!
Just watched a couple of the vids back and it does seem sound like it revs out :/
yup, should be 5252, so if you re-align the the rev graph to 5252 and if the engine was not revved out...
Just a theory, may be way off...
https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5539/29744918080_a1113d44a0_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MjstRb)skillenrev (https://flic.kr/p/MjstRb) by mark stone (https://www.flickr.com/photos/129563590@N06/), on Flickr
sheldore
01-10-16, 09:39 AM
I'm not so sure now on the mechanic! Thought he would be fine as a lot of people use them where I'm from but maybe he got it way wrong and it's out as a lot are saying and he's screwed it up!
That's why I never use that garage heard many bad reports about them not being the best.
Skillen
01-10-16, 09:50 AM
That's why I never use that garage heard many bad reports about them not being the best.
He took the belt job on at least :(:(
Won't be back there now anyway. Just need to find someone reputable in chester area now.
Have to wait to get home now before I can do more, not sure if I should check compression as well?
start with the easiest, simplest and most logical.
verify the dyno results first.
blink motorsport are up that way, they have had 2 similar spec cars on their hub dyno so you have comparitive results, around 172-4 at the hubs.
The graph won't cross in the rihht place as the scales on torque and power aren't the same
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
And no it won't be correct on std timing marks.
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
The graph won't cross in the rihht place as the scales on torque and power aren't the same
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
well spotted.
And no it won't be correct on std timing marks.
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
certainly not, and it will still be off on pipers figures, but timed up as standard wouldn't produce a torque curve like that, so I'd go back to vis motors as first check.
ZS Phil
01-10-16, 12:16 PM
certainly not, and it will still be off on pipers figures, but timed up as standard wouldn't produce a torque curve like that, so I'd go back to vis motors as first check.
Which begs the question, what is the correct way to time the pipers for optimal performance? Mine are just on factory pulleys timed using the proper tools.
http://sharkwerks.com/forum_photos/3_9_Liter_Motor_Upgrade_2007_997_GT3_RS_ZKERMIT/3-9-liter-motor-upgrade-997-GT3-RS-sharkwerks-motor-cam-timing-2.JPG
like this
Skillen
01-10-16, 02:02 PM
http://sharkwerks.com/forum_photos/3_9_Liter_Motor_Upgrade_2007_997_GT3_RS_ZKERMIT/3-9-liter-motor-upgrade-997-GT3-RS-sharkwerks-motor-cam-timing-2.JPG
like this
I can imagine with the engine in the car that the rear bank will be difficult to time like this!
I'll check the vis motors as soon as I can, not sure when it will be though :/
Or I could just stick some fresh ones in and be done with it and repair mine as a spare set.
Timing wise I'll be best getting it done soon and I can then see if I can get it done maybe at the blink place :)
Hopefully it's an easy job to get me running spot on!
I guess I'll then see a noticable improvement in performance if it can all be rectified! :)
MG ZS STE
01-10-16, 03:00 PM
How do these results stack up against staccatos (mine) dyno. Don't the cars share similar mods?
http://forums.xpowerforums.com/showthread.php?t=42293
a typical torque shape, the vis at 3k & 4k clearly visible and the way the torque tails off. the usual gulps at vis opening in the afr too!
https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5781/29961157501_b466f82ea7_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MDyLi4)dyno (https://flic.kr/p/MDyLi4) by mark stone (https://www.flickr.com/photos/129563590@N06/), on Flickr
Skillen
01-10-16, 04:59 PM
Oh yeah can see those peaks there with nothing to compare to on my graph.
How much are vis motors going for?
Easy fix? I'm handy with a soldering iron.
Might well get myself across to those guys :)
does pete t16 refurb them with new circuit boards?? if so, i'd get a pair of them
Skillen
04-10-16, 12:05 PM
does pete t16 refurb them with new circuit boards?? if so, i'd get a pair of them
So I can hear a fast rattle that comes on around 3k for a thousand (ish) revs
I'm imagining that is the plenum? Please tell me it's not the plenum.
So I can hear a fast rattle that comes on around 3k for a thousand (ish) revs
I'm imagining that is the plenum? Please tell me it's not the plenum.
most rattles on a rover are just down to p1ss poor tolerances.
even if the plenum rattles a little, as long as everything is attached and still operates smoothly I wouldn't worry, your problem is the vis motors and/or seized balanced flap rather than play in the ball & knuckles
Skillen
04-10-16, 12:55 PM
most rattles on a rover are just down to p1ss poor tolerances.
even if the plenum rattles a little, as long as everything is attached and still operates smoothly I wouldn't worry, your problem is the vis motors and/or seized balanced flap rather than play in the ball & knuckles
Cool thanks, I'm still waiting for a response from peteT16 on the motors just thought it may be another thing in the way!
Didn't know the balance flap could stick. Can I throw some carb cleaner through to unstick?
tcb 180
04-10-16, 03:02 PM
Had mine done in Yeovil and got 194. Air filter mod de cat and stainless exhaust.
Had scooby done in January after a few mods and got 317bhp BUT the owner of the rolling road noticed that the inlet air temp blasting the front wasn't set correctly and stated we should be more like 330bhp just due to that. She don't half pop and bang too but ticks over silky smooth and quiet. A bit of a sleeper tbh.
Cool thanks, I'm still waiting for a response from peteT16 on the motors just thought it may be another thing in the way!
Didn't know the balance flap could stick. Can I throw some carb cleaner through to unstick?
sometimes the plastic becomes distorted and need a file to correct
Skillen
04-10-16, 07:24 PM
sometimes the plastic becomes distorted and need a file to correct
Jesus, the damn thing is a bloody nightmare.
Had mine done in Yeovil and got 194. Air filter mod de cat and stainless exhaust.
Had scooby done in January after a few mods and got 317bhp BUT the owner of the rolling road noticed that the inlet air temp blasting the front wasn't set correctly and stated we should be more like 330bhp just due to that. She don't half pop and bang too but ticks over silky smooth and quiet. A bit of a sleeper tbh.
Unless you have a front mount intercooler you will always get get high intake temps on a Scooby easiest way to sort that problem is to buy a Evolution :p .... Only having a laugh there btw
tcb 180
06-10-16, 05:47 PM
Can't get a nice Evo for £1700 though. Plus servicing. Ooooooooh!
The temp of the fan that they blow air in was wrong I believe? Still 317bhp was nice as we were only hoping to break 300
Can't get a nice Evo for £1700 though. Plus servicing. Ooooooooh!
The temp of the fan that they blow air in was wrong I believe? Still 317bhp was nice as we were only hoping to break 300
No unfortunately not need a another clutch for mine just the parts/ fluids are almost £1200 :zorro:
dave23572
20-10-16, 03:56 PM
I'm thinking of getting 270 cams also and have been speaking to Peter Burchill on Facebook about it.
He says it's best to fit 270 cams with standard 180 pulleys and cam timing on a road car.
Anyway, Peter would be a good person to contact about 270 cams.
As a reference for you, my 180 dyno'd at 195BHP (corrected).
Spec was: standard 180 heads/cams. ITG Maxogen, Janspeed manifolds, Janspeed sports cat and custom built "Longlife" stainless exhaust.
Rolling road and remap was done at "AMD" in Thurrock, Essex. (They run a BTCC car!)
I'm about to upgrade to ported heads with 270 cams.
It's a shame you live so far from me, as I have a VIS tester.
I'm near Chelmsford, Essex.
peterzs
20-10-16, 04:17 PM
sounds a good result.
Skillen
20-10-16, 05:29 PM
Got the vis changed over thanks to Pete.
It's now clear that the balance was playing up.
Not sure on the power but I'm going to try and get it back on the rollers again Maybe tomorrow at the same place to see if there is a difference.
I should probably check the timing at some point but it's not something I've done before.
Mark, you were saying about running without a mil eliminator I just wanted to clear up whether I should get one or not.
I know you mentioned getting a sports cat and I will at some point but currently it's off the cards so want to help this out as much as I can.
That is a good result Dave I'm gutted mines nowhere near that.
If the timing is way out I'll be taking it to that place you mentioned mark to see if they can time them in with the gauges.
dave23572
20-10-16, 05:49 PM
Got the vis changed over thanks to Pete.
It's now clear that the balance was playing up.
Not sure on the power but I'm going to try and get it back on the rollers again Maybe tomorrow at the same place to see if there is a difference.
I should probably check the timing at some point but it's not something I've done before.
Mark, you were saying about running without a mil eliminator I just wanted to clear up whether I should get one or not.
I know you mentioned getting a sports cat and I will at some point but currently it's off the cards so want to help this out as much as I can.
That is a good result Dave I'm gutted mines nowhere near that.
If the timing is way out I'll be taking it to that place you mentioned mark to see if they can time them in with the gauges.
Don't be gutted, yours should be more powerful than mine, and should be well over 200BHP when you get the problem sorted.
There's obviously something not quite right, which should be addressable.
It's worth persevering given the money you've probably spent.
As I said, Peter Burchill (can be found on Facebook in the "MG ZS Owners Club" group) is an authority on 270 cams (he sells them).
He recommended standard "180" cam timing for a road car.
Skillen
20-10-16, 06:45 PM
Don't be gutted, yours should be more powerful than mine, and should be well over 200BHP when you get the problem sorted.
There's obviously something not quite right, which should be addressable.
It's worth persevering given the money you've probably spent.
As I said, Peter Burchill (can be found on Facebook in the "MG ZS Owners Club" group) is an authority on 270 cams (he sells them).
He recommended standard "180" cam timing for a road car.
I hope it gets to that point and some lol.
Fingers crossed the VIS has helped and the timing isn't out as I don't want it to be a job like a belt change 😂
i wouldn't use a mil eliminator, if running without one throws the engine check light, instal a high flow cat, they can be bought for less than a ton.
i don't think your can timing is out enough to cause noticeable issues, i think you'll have found the answers in the vis.
the whole cam timing thing is very complex if your purely after out and out acceleration, i don't think i recommended anyone for timing, rather just using the gauges as an illustration of how the pro's time up an engine.
blink motorsport would make an insteresting hub dyno session, especially as there is comparable zs data there already.
i don't buy into a lot of these dyno quoted numbers people band around, some dynos overread by quite a margin, 17% for a certain well known engine tuners dyno!!! don't get drawn into the numbers game, a simple time to accelerate from x to y is more meaningful on a dyno than bs numbers, but blink would give you great comparisons.
as for 270's, they can be made to work well if setup with verniers, i have not seen anyone yet do it right, and don't be fooled into thinking piper have much idea on where the timing should be!!! with that in mind, and for the small differences between rover stock timing and pipers, you may as well just leave it be as pete says, personally i'd leave the engine alone and fit a 4.2final drive instead
Skillen
20-10-16, 08:31 PM
Ok I'll leave the mil for now thanks, I'll put some money aside for a sports cat.
No you didn't recommend a place but they have some decent looking reviews when I looked after you mentioned them for the dyno don't worry about the recommendation 👍🏻
I quite fancy having the timing set up properly with the verniers, it'd be a nice change, if it doesn't work out I'll keep trying :)
I'll try the same set of rollers and then get to the hub dyno as soon as for the comparison, as you say it will be good find out.
I've seen your posts about the gearbox thing maybe something to look at later.
I have a type b and a lighter flywheel yet to go on too.
I used an mil eliminator in my zs without any noticeable issues.
Sent from Drew @ Roverdose
I've seen your posts about the gearbox thing maybe something to look at later.
I have a type b and a lighter flywheel yet to go on too.
Its so overlooked, I think most get scared about more revs equals more noise and less fuel economy.
But think about it, you can drive at 70mph with 30% throttle and plenty of induction noise, or you can drive at 70mph with 10% throttle and minimal induction noise, which is quieter?
Granted, the former is at 3200rpm and the latter around 3700rpm, but at those revs there is no noticeable difference in purely engine noise.
I never noticed any decrease in fuel economy.
In a similar way, an Integra Type R is a revving car, its almost unbearable at 70mph revving away at 4300rpm or so, but drive it at 100mph and its actually really pleasant, and quieter!
The box will put a smile on your face like no other 'mod' will.
Skillen
21-10-16, 03:19 PM
TBH I'm not too fussed about the economy as it's not exactly synonymous with trying to increase power :)
Got the re-run booked for Tuesday so hopefully will be better.
I'll definitely look into getting the box sorted.
Is the 4.2FD compatible with the u spec boxes?
the 1800 gearset is plenty strong enough, no need for 'u' shafts
Skillen
25-10-16, 04:19 PM
Annoyingly they couldn't redo the dyno today,
I went through but to get it done but a new audi's electronic handbrake had failed and it had got itself stuck on the dyno.
So unfortunately I'll have to re-schedule but he is knocking a tenner off next time as I waited a while there.
I will have to hide my time and hopefully do some other bits and pieces as it comes and then update with the new results.
ZS Phil
25-10-16, 05:12 PM
Frustrating...
What does the butt dyno say after the motors have been changed?
Annoyingly they couldn't redo the dyno today,
I went through but to get it done but a new audi's electronic handbrake had failed and it had got itself stuck on the dyno.
So unfortunately I'll have to re-schedule but he is knocking a tenner off next time as I waited a while there.
I will have to hide my time and hopefully do some other bits and pieces as it comes and then update with the new results.
Did they try a brake reset to release the park brake? Sure will be worth the wait tho my ZR had many problems but got there in end
Skillen
25-10-16, 08:32 PM
Frustrating...
What does the butt dyno say after the motors have been changed?
Butt dyno says improved though not sure to the extent it should be just gotta keep working :)
Did they try a brake reset to release the park brake? Sure will be worth the wait tho my ZR had many problems but got there in end
I'm not sure TBH i didn't ask really.
Glad I got some money off the next one still.
Just gonna have to keep chipping away with it. Hopefully won't be long to get it back in as I'm need to take another 4 days off before December
Lukeus101
26-10-16, 06:52 AM
Glad it hasn't dampened your spirit mate, Im sure like Johns ZR it will get there in the end :)
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