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ZS Phil 23-08-14 10:40 PM

Update time...

It's been a while but things have been changing in the background.

Having been running the custom injectors with the VNT for a good few months and a few thousand miles of daily driving the VNT mech had finally begun to slow down (hardly surprising with the amount of soot the injectors throw out).

It needs to be a reliable daily so with that in mind I decided to de-tune slightly by putting the standard turbo back on along with SDIs.

That lasted for 2 weeks...

Having gotten used to the power and torque of the VNT, the standard turbo wasn't cutting the mustard higher up the rev range so it had to go. The way I saw things were I could either re-fit the VNT and run it with SDIs so as not to clog it up every few thousand miles OR I could try something completely different, not yet tried on an L series as far as I know.

So, this is the end of the VNT chapter for now. It is all cleaned out and waiting on a shelf in the garage for some more action in the future maybe.

So, as always, lots of pictures and info so if anybody else wants a bigger turbo on their car too there are literally no excuses not to do it!

First of all, here is 1x VNT turbo kit with super clean silky smooth vanes safely in storage should it ever be called up for duty again in the future:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psdbe2d71e.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps12be32ea.jpg


Out with the old and in with the new. The postman came with some presents:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps51f34b2a.jpg


But what's inside?

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psf0ff78fd.jpg

As you can see, lots of turbo goodness including a blown GT2056s as used on Renault Trafic vans and Vivaro vans with the 2.5 dci engine between 2003 and 2006.

Part no. 714652

Other useful info:
Compressor inducer: 41.5mm
Compressor exducer: 56mm
A/R: 0.53
Trim: 55

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps193c6e3d.jpg



According to the seller there was just an oil seal gone but rather than rely on used parts I decided to replace the whole CHRA (cartridge) for a brand new uprated one from NKK turbos. This has staggered seals, uprated bearings and is completely balanced with print out.

Other than that, there are just loads of gaskets, some stainless exhaust sections and some steel plate for me to get creative with.

Some pics of the turbo, ties in with the blown oil seal story, oil everywhere!

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps70622b72.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps0512813e.jpg

After a thorough clean/ de-grease:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps393d82f6.jpg


A flange for the turbo end of the downpipe:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps13771cb7.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps8729e883.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psab1964d9.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps7494474d.jpg


Recycling some old exhaust, I made a little partition to isolate the wastegate from the turbine outlet. I also made the flange look a bit prettier.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psd73cf98b.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps865503ea.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps4ee87757.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps88450356.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pse343b382.jpg



Continuing the theme of recycling, I needed a flange for the other end of the new downpipe:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps3049d533.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psf165a512.jpg



Before I could lock the wastegate shut properly, I needed to clock the turbo which is where the VNT came in very useful. Both turbos have the same manifold flange (so I didn't have to make another adapter plate) and also the compressor housings look to be exactly the same casting surprisingly. They have the retaining bolts in slightly different places and they are obviously machined to take the 52mm and 56mm compressor wheels accordingly.

One thing that did cross my mind was how easy it would be to make a VNT GT1856V using the compressor side from the GT2056s. Maybe something for the future?

Anyway, back to this... a clocked turbo and a few pics comparing the 1852V and the 2056S:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps7e707431.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps4be86ad2.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psa15d0ff7.jpg


So now I could start my next piece of metal work... a means of keeping the internal wastegate shut:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps75a8ae96.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psee663dc3.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps2457c2ec.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psed2dd204.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps2874f284.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pscec80d84.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps88bf8cd2.jpg


All bolted together:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psba887cef.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps1ba34a7d.jpg



And naturally it got the oil and filter dropped and new stuff put in.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps67843430.jpg


It is now all fitted and ready to go, I just need to get the downpipe parts welded together and a screamer pipe for the wastegate made. If its too loud I'll just plumb it back into the exhaust as with the set up with the VNT.

So I've got what could potentially be the next best thing in L series tuning or the next lemon. Really wish I could say which of the two it is but no downpipe means no drive yet.

Needless to say I'm excited to see how it is... watch this space.

Lukeus101 23-08-14 11:04 PM

Wow, what an update mate! Some bloody hard work gone into it and will look forward to seeing how it performs ;)

talkingcars 24-08-14 07:24 AM

Impressive work, is it kitchen table tuning or do you have access to a workshop?

ZS Phil 24-08-14 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukeus101 (Post 344876)
Wow, what an update mate! Some bloody hard work gone into it and will look forward to seeing how it performs ;)

Cheers mate, cant wait to drive it. So annoying having it sat there ready to go with just an exhaust section missing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talkingcars (Post 344888)
Impressive work, is it kitchen table tuning or do you have access to a workshop?

I suppose its a bit of both. I don't have access to a proper workshop, I just use my garage (as in single car garage at the side of the house, not a car repair garage) which is semi kitted out as a workshop. I've got a pillar drill, grinding wheel, metal work vice etc all bolted to a bench along with a good stash of hand tools so I can do most things by hand as one offs. Obviously those flanges took all day to make with just those tools so I wont be setting up a production line any time soon!

peterzs 24-08-14 10:13 AM

Well done, love all the attention to detail.

Awesome car and looks so O/E, cant wait to see it again.

:yes::yes::yes:

p_b82 26-08-14 08:30 AM

Nice one Phil - it is a shame to see that the 200TDI's clogged the VNT mech so fast though....

I think it is going to be interesting if we can find a sweet spot , but it seems that mapping will probably have to be done on a dyno, and a 'loooong' session too to get it right.

I really hope the lag is not too bad for you, as I think you will miss the low down response the VNT gave you - as going back to an OE unit, I understand they are fairly similar in terms of response characteristics.

I know the stage 2 is around 2000 before anything meaningful happens, and 2225 before full boost can be achieved.

I have to admit it is my biggest fear with the GTB purchase, the soot levels..... first stage is cleaning running on SDI hybrids though to get it bedded in and work on the controller tweaking!

ZS Phil 27-08-14 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterzs (Post 344898)
Well done, love all the attention to detail.

Awesome car and looks so O/E, cant wait to see it again.

:yes::yes::yes:

Thanks Peter :)

Hopefully it will all pay off. No doubt I will show my face at a few more events, had such a good time at the saloon day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 345003)
Nice one Phil - it is a shame to see that the 200TDI's clogged the VNT mech so fast though....

I think it is going to be interesting if we can find a sweet spot , but it seems that mapping will probably have to be done on a dyno, and a 'loooong' session too to get it right.

I really hope the lag is not too bad for you, as I think you will miss the low down response the VNT gave you - as going back to an OE unit, I understand they are fairly similar in terms of response characteristics.

I know the stage 2 is around 2000 before anything meaningful happens, and 2225 before full boost can be achieved.

I have to admit it is my biggest fear with the GTB purchase, the soot levels..... first stage is cleaning running on SDI hybrids though to get it bedded in and work on the controller tweaking!

The VNT sooted up with the hybrid injectors and the fuel pump virtually maxed out. Needless to say it was very smokey so not really surprising, it was a question of when not if. We did try reducing smoke with the hybrids by reducing the injection quantity but with the controller settings left as they were it wasn't boosting and obviously not making power. Changing the map and the controller map would have overcome this but there are so many variables and perameters in the VNT controller that it would have taken hours and hours so decided to leave things as they were and came away with some decent power runs and a hard cut limiter for good measure.

With SDIs back in now I'll see how the new turbo burns the fuel and then consider putting the 200's back in but if that happens I'll have to pay Kris a visit to reduce fueling again.

Regarding lag, I hope it isn't too bad too but from what I've seen on youtube and what I've read I believe I should be able to get 24-25psi by 2.5k rpm. If that is the case then it is no worse than my VNT. Time will tell I suppose because I'm not taking the 306 forum as gospel, just keeping an open mind until I know the facts.

Your GTB has a different vane design to my VNT so hopefully that should help with clogging. Also, you see the amount of smoke that comes out the back of tuned VAGs with the GTBs and they don't seem to have many problems. I'm sure you'll be fine.

I've said to Kris that when his controller is sorted I'll have one, VNT isn't off the cards for me completely, I just need a reliable daily driver for the next year hence keeping it old school and simple for now.

p_b82 27-08-14 10:56 AM

Well I suppose that actually knowing what you had pushed through it, it was soot that was your issue not EMP or EGT is a promising sign for 200+ ponies and reliability... that was something that was still an unknown for most of us!

Part the reason that I wanted Kris's controller was so that the map and the vnt control can work in tandem, as it is not always about generating boost, but more about getting decent flow.... if you dont *need* 20+PSI to get a wave or torque then dont have it there ready and waiting.....

obviously WOT throttle requests change all that, but I haven't used WOT for so long I have got used to driving with the torque and can keep up quite happily with most things at road speeds.

I've not spent much time on the 306 one tbh, but spent a fair amount of research on the VAG one clubtdi i think it is, and that was why I went for the (pricey) GTB in the end.

I am sure we are not going to get the same level of power that they get out, as we have a lower rev limit from the factory (4200) even if mine will go up to 5400. but the exhaust manifold will be interesting to see if it makes any difference. we know from past experience from Donny, that the inlet one is *good* so this really is going to be my last power mods...

for me low smoke is important, James Bond smoke screens out the back is not what I am after, been there done that and it is fun, but dangerous ultimately...

i'd like to have a dual map option, one for track/pod use and one for everyday, but I might get round that with my right foot again lol.

Either way, fingers crossed that the new turbo does the job!

I still fear it will be the low down reponse that might prove a bit of a killer, as we we know they can bog down a bit with poor maf on the little GT15's.....

ZS Phil 12-09-14 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 345060)
Well I suppose that actually knowing what you had pushed through it, it was soot that was your issue not EMP or EGT is a promising sign for 200+ ponies and reliability... that was something that was still an unknown for most of us!

Part the reason that I wanted Kris's controller was so that the map and the vnt control can work in tandem, as it is not always about generating boost, but more about getting decent flow.... if you dont *need* 20+PSI to get a wave or torque then dont have it there ready and waiting.....

obviously WOT throttle requests change all that, but I haven't used WOT for so long I have got used to driving with the torque and can keep up quite happily with most things at road speeds.

I've not spent much time on the 306 one tbh, but spent a fair amount of research on the VAG one clubtdi i think it is, and that was why I went for the (pricey) GTB in the end.

I am sure we are not going to get the same level of power that they get out, as we have a lower rev limit from the factory (4200) even if mine will go up to 5400. but the exhaust manifold will be interesting to see if it makes any difference. we know from past experience from Donny, that the inlet one is *good* so this really is going to be my last power mods...

for me low smoke is important, James Bond smoke screens out the back is not what I am after, been there done that and it is fun, but dangerous ultimately...

i'd like to have a dual map option, one for track/pod use and one for everyday, but I might get round that with my right foot again lol.

Either way, fingers crossed that the new turbo does the job!

I still fear it will be the low down reponse that might prove a bit of a killer, as we we know they can bog down a bit with poor maf on the little GT15's.....

Your plans all sound good and I'm glad somebody else is sticking their neck out with a new turbo choice. Look forward to seeing the results... make sure you take lots of pics and keep us updated.
Hows the controller coming on by the way? We any closer to seeing the manifold?

ZS Phil 12-09-14 04:00 PM

Pretty self explanatory really, just to show the downpipe and screamer pipe. One of them shows how the wastegate is plumbed in with the controller too if anybody was wondering.

A couple of poor quality vids of the screamer pipe. Still a bit undecided but I've got a baffle insert on the way to see if that makes it a bit quieter.

Windows up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBfhcrrUnGQ

Windows down through a short tunnel at the start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IugHKBeQLw

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psbf4ecef0.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psdc81b8c8.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psbcbb0708.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psbbe41701.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps8aad8c97.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps13f367c2.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps389c3d48.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps0b60dec6.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps1bb8e931.jpg

talkingcars 12-09-14 04:13 PM

One of the reasons I want to learn to weld properly, wanna make my own exhaust for the maestro.

ZS Phil 26-09-14 09:51 PM

Took a few pics today so here is as good a place to put them as any.

Some ducks stopped me in my tracks for a few minutes this morning on one of my favorite local roads and thought it made a nice picture:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps548730e8.jpg

Then I knew the MOT was due so popped into the garage on my way home. It passed first time with not a single advisory which I was chuffed about:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps0abe8b87.jpg

Since it was a nice day I decided to try out the baffle I got for the screamer pipe. Nice tight fit into the pipe, it was made for the job:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psdcdf335f.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psb55534b2.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps9548da6d.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps6769d433.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps1b8cbd4a.jpg

Then I went from this:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps6ab26d7f.jpg

Got these:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psf45834d9.jpg

Took a knife to my seats and finished up with this:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psa52c3b02.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps1bfd7d3e.jpg

Lukeus101 26-09-14 09:59 PM

Awesome work Phil :) need vids ;)

ZS Phil 26-09-14 10:57 PM

Funny you should say that, I've just finished uploading this:
It's rubbish...

Anybody any ideas on how to record good quality exhaust sound. What equipment to use and where to put it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnFV...ature=youtu.be

peterzs 27-09-14 10:04 AM

Have to stop feeding the ducks!!

Brave taking a knife to the seats, but good result.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

ZS Phil 28-09-14 10:26 AM

Haha the duck are lucky I stopped in time, I thought they were leaves on the road from a distance.
Thanks Pete, I'm really pleased with them, make the rear look "finished" if you know what I mean.

peterzs 28-09-14 06:33 PM

Yep, look good.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

adam 28-09-14 06:40 PM

Looks fantastic!

p_b82 02-10-14 08:55 PM

looking good there Phil, the hard cut makes some quite amusing smoke 'bubbles' lol

ZS Phil 03-05-15 12:08 AM

The track car has been stealing my attention a little bit recently but the TD is still going strong. Been nothing but a reliable mile muncher over winter so treated it to some TLC over the last few weeks.

First things first, now its summer virtually and I can wash it more regularly the bigger injectors are back in... for the first time on the GT2056 turbo.

The verdict... well at 25psi it shifts however the smoke cloud is just plain embarrassing if its anything other than a dark B road so I need to tweak the map for less fuel higher up and I need to up the boost a bit, should be good for up to 29 psi according to the compressor map however how far I take it depends on the exhaust manifold pressure.

Once I'm happy with it, Ill get it back on the rollers and hope I get an operator who doesn't mind a workshop full of volcanic ash (unless I re-route the screamer pipe back into the downpipe before then).

Anyway, enough boring diesel talk, some pics:

Hybrid injectors going back in

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psfoy6q8hb.jpg

The Team Dynamics wheels which are being donated to the track car and the state the calipers had got themselves into over winter:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps8hmmfmfr.jpg

About 14 horsepower worth of green paint later:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psz7fmwzc1.jpg


Next was the wheels, decided to get the straights which came on the track car done in the closest colour I could find to the Pro Race.

One-off center badges by "locking vinyl", they look awesome!

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps1jklp58z.jpg

New nuts:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psafngxtc8.jpg

Much better :)

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psrnxwcxk5.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psl3jnlfxk.jpg

All ready for POL:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psr4n2fjli.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pstfxlioko.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pst0ewwyd9.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps69hmljfx.jpg


The big day...

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psyk0zjb0j.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psxkgamjvn.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psdoeljnjn.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psurl4royo.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psyxaoqmfj.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psvbtwxlre.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psvvirmhdi.jpg




And finally, after nearly 5 years of ownership of this car, I finally got to take it home... what a day :)

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pskuzkmxd6.jpg

talkingcars 03-05-15 12:19 AM

I'm liking that.

carmadbaker 03-05-15 07:28 AM

I love this car :thumbsup:
Love the smoke plumes, no smoke no poke!
Expected hp with new injectors?

ZS Phil 04-05-15 09:41 AM

Again, thanks for the comments :)

Bit more progress last night with improving boost control... I wont bore everybody with the details (unless anybody wants to know, in which case more than happy to share what I've done).

To answer the question of expected power?
I'm not really sure. I've been so close to 200 that I guess I'll need to break that at some point as a bit of a target.
It feels really good with the current set up and even after that I'm looking into hybridising the cold side so plenty of avenues to explore even with the current turbo.

Bear in mind it has to be a reliable daily too though :P

p_b82 04-05-15 05:08 PM

You can bore me with the details ;)

interesting how the smoke is still too much with the 200 TDI's & the 2056....

I am really not sure what I going to do about that.... will hopefully have my GTB1856v in later this summer - going SDI hybrids first to get it all bedded in, but due to the soot, I am concerned by the 200TDI's with the VNT mech...

It really sounds like we need something inbetween for nozzle sizes - pity there doesn't seem to be anything else out there with the right angles :(

ZS Phil 04-05-15 05:46 PM

Since you asked :D

So previously I had been running 25 psi boost with the WG controlled by an external WG specific controller (the black thing in the diagram) which SHUTS at threshold pressure meaning boost pressure can no longer enter the top chamber of the WG however boost pressure still goes to the bottom chamber which pushes against the diaphragm and the gate opens.

This worked fine however because the wastegate spring is only rated to 10 psi and I wanted 25 psi, I was starting to get creep at 18-19 psi. One of the benefits of the screamer pipe is you can hear exactly when the gate starts to open.

Now to overcome this I have tried something which I haven't seen done before... I have added a mechanical boost controller before the lower chamber of the WG.
I have left the original WG controller at 25 psi so boost stops reaching the top chamber at 25 psi still however no boost will be allowed to reach the bottom chamber until 27psi as dictated by the added mechanical boost controller. Peak boost is now 29 psi.

There is now much less creep, the gate is virtually open or closed with absolutely minimal "in between".
This means spool is much quicker and there is less smoke. The extra few psi have transformed the car and really started to help the extra fuel from the 200 tdis get burnt.

I am currently running the fuel pump maxxed out with the landrover nozzles too so there is some smoke as to be expected. I'm going to tweak fuelling down a bit up top but I'm at the stage now where I'm confident the landrover nozzles are a good choice for the correct turbo.

I couldn't be happier with the 2056 now I've made the negligible changes.

Some results from testing:
EMP @ 70 mph cruising = 4psi
EMP during normal but hardish acceleration= 1:1 ratio with boost.
Peak EMP (4th gear foot to the floor 50-90 mph= 38psi @ 29-30psi boost.

All in all, I think that illusive 200 is on the cards for the "masses" without VNT.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psjzxrojgh.jpg

p_b82 04-05-15 09:35 PM

nice results there - and that EMP is nice and 'safe' 36-38PSI is what I think is the limit of what we should be peaking at; as we hit 32PSI on just the SDI's on the standard turbo with a remap;

with my foot limit I did not go beyond 36PSI and I've not done a HG since - so think that is probably the max we want to play with.... just hope that even with the extra flow out the back we do not have too high cylinder pressures!

I had forgotten your map was set up for max fuel on the old SDi's - hence the smoke.... so certainly has potential for 200 on that turbo I'd have thought.

Do you happen to know your EGT's?

ZS Phil 06-05-15 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 358078)
nice results there - and that EMP is nice and 'safe' 36-38PSI is what I think is the limit of what we should be peaking at; as we hit 32PSI on just the SDI's on the standard turbo with a remap;

with my foot limit I did not go beyond 36PSI and I've not done a HG since - so think that is probably the max we want to play with.... just hope that even with the extra flow out the back we do not have too high cylinder pressures!

I had forgotten your map was set up for max fuel on the old SDi's - hence the smoke.... so certainly has potential for 200 on that turbo I'd have thought.

Do you happen to know your EGT's?

I don't have an EGT probe unfortunately but another guy in Poland (Remi) has just fitted the same turbo and has reported good figures however he is only running SDIs so probably not a fair comparison.

ZS Phil 06-05-15 11:02 AM

Just for giggles, a quick video to show that the 200 tdi hybrids can be "acceptable" if driven sensibly even with a hardcore "max fuel" map.
Equally, as the second half shows they can be obscene (but bloody quick and a whole lot of fun).

Turn the speakers up :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toox_N0T3_Q

peterzs 06-05-15 11:53 AM

Good vids.

:bow::bow::bow:

p_b82 06-05-15 12:03 PM

Yeah it won't be a 'valid' comparison as the EGT really does change with soot/smoke levels.... Your smoke looks like mine did on the wingies I had...... and I was hitting 850c with them on sustained full bore runs.... peaked at I think 650 with the SDi hybrids under the same load.....

the scary thing is that fuel is limited in 1st and 2nd due to the torque limiter.... in 3rd and upwards it must be mentally bad lol

Does sound nice tho :D

ZS Phil 08-05-15 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 358145)
Yeah it won't be a 'valid' comparison as the EGT really does change with soot/smoke levels.... Your smoke looks like mine did on the wingies I had...... and I was hitting 850c with them on sustained full bore runs.... peaked at I think 650 with the SDi hybrids under the same load.....

the scary thing is that fuel is limited in 1st and 2nd due to the torque limiter.... in 3rd and upwards it must be mentally bad lol

Does sound nice tho :D

As had been said before, I'm convinced from what I've heard about wingies that they are just 200tdi nozzles with the part numbers ground off.
They are the only obvious upgrade from a catalogue browsing point of view in terms of spray angle, orifice size, two stage etc.
Orifice size of the 200tdi is 0.24mm whereas the SDIs are 0.22mm so not a huge difference although the effect this has on area is obviously very significant.

I spent all day yesterday mapping the 200tdis in. The video I posted was just for a laugh, it hasn't stayed like that!


MAPPING ADVICE FOR 200 TDI NOZZLES

First of all, don't bother on a standard turbo, SDIs are more than enough for the job, this only applies for fitting a bigger turbo.

If anybody wants to run 200tdis the best advice I can give is less is more.
I took the "max fuel" map off and replaced it with the original map from my girlfriends 45 (101) with the only differences being the increased rev limit and hard-cut as before. This was the baseline.

Even with the virtually stock map there was smoke under normal acceleration (like in the first clip of the video) although higher up (once on boost) the smoke was much less as to be expected. It felt just as quick top end and EMP dropped (as to be expected).

Back on the driveway and the map edited, I reduced requested fuel in the drivers wish maps by up to -50% for lower throttle position values and gradually increased to standard values for ~50% throttle then added 10% for +70% throttle over 2000 rpm.

I also edited the smoke limit map, by up to -40% below 0.5 bar boost (corrected) gradually increasing to standard values at 0.7 bar then +15% over 1.0 bar.

Out for another test drive... the smoke situation is really good, just like a mapped car on SDIs now but maybe with a bit more on full throttle- this is a haze now rather than James Bond smoke screen- you can get away with full throttle without looking like a complete wally. Performance wise, it feels just as quick full throttle as the "max fuel" map however lower down the pull is much better, maybe due to reduced temps.

Back home for a few more tweaks to make the power delivery more linear and that's where I'm up to.

If anybody says the 200 tdis are too much... I'm sorry but it just isn't suitably mapped.

So, in summary, I'm chuffed the injectors I spent so much money on can be used and further more I have as much fuel to play with as I like when the next stage of turbo inevitably comes.
Also, I've not measured it yet but I bet fuel economy has gone up significantly too given how much fuel I took out of the standard map lower down.
Exciting times :D

Skillen 08-05-15 08:27 AM

Would have been good to see this vs the track car (before stripping).
When I had RZA it left my cousins 170 Leon 550 diesel in the dirt from standstill and from a rolling 30 start which is the opposite to what I expected with his torque (obviously heavier car though.)
With the gains you've made with the car it'll be interesting to see how it is against one.

ZS Phil 08-05-15 09:10 AM

Yeh, would make an interesting comparison.
I think from a standing start the 180 would have the diesel, also round a track the 180 would have it simply because of the longer power band.
That said, in-gear acceleration and a twisty b road where the torque will throw you from corner to corner I think the TD could well be the weapon of choice.
They are both fun, having to choose just one would be a tough call.

Skillen 08-05-15 09:32 AM

I'd go for the 180 but I just can't see myself in a diesel lol.
I can't see myself in a 4pot of any kind tbh!
But I think it'd be funny to smokescreen a young fool thinking he had the diesel car easily!
You need a button that can change the map so you can do the smokescreen for fun ha!

ZS Phil 08-05-15 09:52 AM

The smoke switch idea would actually be pretty easy to do...

There is a "limp mode" map which it goes into if the MAF sensor signal is lost.

All I'd need would be a switch to lose the MAF signal and to change the "MAF-less map" to request loads of fuel, job done :D

... You've got me thinking now, a dual map might actually be a good idea.

Skillen 08-05-15 10:32 AM

In the lower dash.
Where the ashtray is.
Press the ashtray, it flips down revealing toggle switches. Labeled "SMOKE" & "BOOST" (both do the same thing but no one needs to know as one switch is boring.)

p_b82 08-05-15 01:31 PM

Great news that Phil - now to get it on a dyno....

Maybe I will jump to the 200TDI's fairly quickly - I've a low SDI map on mine atm to save the HG on the stage 2.... so will be hugely underfuelled for the GTB1856v.

Smoke levels of just a hazing/SDI equivalent is what we need to really achieve with the VNT as uou know, otherwise it is de clagging of the vanes!

I think when they bring in actual emissions tests - if our derv's get sucked into that, we will need a dual map for sure...

RE the 180 vs tuned diesel.... a stripped track slag would have the advantage regardless, but It would be interesting if they were both the same spec and to compare.

The engine weight is the same, so it would come down to how well you can get the power/torque down and acceleration from corners - if the driver was the same, and the conditions....

ZS Phil 08-05-15 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skillen (Post 358261)
In the lower dash.
Where the ashtray is.
Press the ashtray, it flips down revealing toggle switches. Labeled "SMOKE" & "BOOST" (both do the same thing but no one needs to know as one switch is boring.)

Haha I like it!
Slightly off topic but do you think you'll end up coming over for that carpet at some point? Really don't want to throw it away but I need the space in the garage :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 358265)
Great news that Phil - now to get it on a dyno....

Maybe I will jump to the 200TDI's fairly quickly - I've a low SDI map on mine atm to save the HG on the stage 2.... so will be hugely underfuelled for the GTB1856v.

Smoke levels of just a hazing/SDI equivalent is what we need to really achieve with the VNT as uou know, otherwise it is de clagging of the vanes!

I think when they bring in actual emissions tests - if our derv's get sucked into that, we will need a dual map for sure...

RE the 180 vs tuned diesel.... a stripped track slag would have the advantage regardless, but It would be interesting if they were both the same spec and to compare.

The engine weight is the same, so it would come down to how well you can get the power/torque down and acceleration from corners - if the driver was the same, and the conditions....

I'm just amazed at how much fuel I've taken out of even the standard map lower down and how hard it pulls still.

You are right though, it needs to go on the rolling road!

Really starting to get back into the diesel tuning... just sent a message to the local turbo place asking about scope for a 2060 hybrid using a 330d cold side and billet compressor... This is meant to be the "sensible" car!!

ZS Phil 17-07-15 10:14 PM

I decided to take the TD for a bit of a drive recently.

A few stats:

27 days
7546 miles
164 hours behind the wheel
17 countries
76 towns
8 capitals
14 mountain passes
8 car ferries
3 time zones
2 crossings of the arctic circle
2 breakdowns
1 tired old MG

I wont list all the countries or anything (unless anybody wants me to) but as always, I'll just try and tell a quick story with a few words and pictures.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pstk4wzdel.jpg





Before we set off...

I only decided to take the ZS over the 45 at the last minute. The 45 would probably have been the "sensible" choice (still running 160 bhp spec) but I wanted some pics of the ZS on some of "the worlds best driving roads"... sad but true.

Preparations 2 days before we set off were to raise the suspension 20mm up front and 12mm at the rear (was a bit nose down before), replace the 2 front Conti Sport Contact 3's for some new ones, replace a leaking oil pressure switch, replace the aux belt and tensioner and give it a good service.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psxoj848la.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psjlwkmvml.jpg


Set off after work and drove down to Dover that night

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psohymtant.jpg

The ZS blends in surprisingly well considering the decals on the roof... waiting for the ferry.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psj3yxribf.jpg


Now then, we saw so many places that it was impossible to take a pic of the car everywhere but some of the scenic places it was rude no to so below are a few of my faves from the trip in the order they were taken.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psgpfbujcs.jpg


This one was taken at 11pm in Norway- 24 hours of daylight.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psnzmtktqk.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps5fxutlab.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps5a9g8trc.jpg



See those toy boats at the bottom of the bath tub??

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psvcgsdvsc.jpg


Well this is what they look like!

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pso9gocjxb.jpg


http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psfviygjrh.jpg


http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psqc8vnzrl.jpg


The "Arctic Road" Norway.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psz47qiumd.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psk9w5kgus.jpg


Naturally saw lots of reindeer as we were approaching Lapland

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psmus7eueb.jpg


I wonder how many ZS's have been in the arctic circle?

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pswayrej8g.jpg


I didn't get any more car pics until Austria when this happened about 5,000 miles into our trip.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pstsj5wxh9.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psx6tqmhhi.jpg


Coolant pipe had worn through. Noticed the temp gauge as it was about 3/4 to max so pulled over straight away and coolant was still dripping so caught it just in time.

Repaired at the side of the motorway by shortening the pipe and re-organising some other pipes.

I did have 2l of spare coolant but that wasn't enough so the rest was substituted for ice tea!


This happened just before we started the big passes. Didn't stop us though.

Grossglockner:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps2c7ftxhr.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psovqztw5m.jpg


She was getting a bit warm so whipped the plate off.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psejems47o.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pssirovcfa.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psyy0jjpin.jpg



Mid holiday bath.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pspzjawjk6.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pspvzyizhm.jpg


Next pass= Hantennjoch

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psfq1rp9y1.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psz2mmuo0c.jpg


Then onto the famous one... the mighty Stelvio and all 48 of it's hairpins.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psgjleamch.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psscsv7lub.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pslmmw9bd5.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps9wfx8pxa.jpg

ZS Phil 17-07-15 10:22 PM

NEXT

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pstidzsfjr.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps50uhmesp.jpg

NEXT

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pssoxfwgrt.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pstgqtreog.jpg

NEXT

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psytckhv61.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psvpwqmpsj.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psw8txgwuc.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pszwnjg1ru.jpg


NEXT

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psexl3vqhv.jpg

NEXT

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psibiv0kav.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...pssyxbpqw8.jpg

Dont fall off!

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psm7zc1t35.jpg










So we just finished the last of our big passes and pop goes the clutch master cylinder in Switzerland.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps7tnutyvj.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psyumrfghn.jpg


No parts available at all (not even in left hand drive) so had to source my own. Made sense to upgrade the complete system so got Dark ice to send me the diesel "Sheddist" kit over next day.
Really can't fault their service, they really helped me out.

In the mean time, the Skoda of death!

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psbqc7ctaf.jpg


Got the MG back on the Friday at lunch time and our boat home set sail from Dunkirk on the Saturday morning at 8 am.

The mechanic was really nice and the garage was an old MG Rover dealer so he knew what he was doing however he accidentally knocked my mechanical boost controller and cracked the plastic. This meant driving from Switzerland to Blackpool with only 10 psi boost when the map is for 29psi boost... it was smokey.

Always one to make the most of a bad situation, I've just finished fitting a Greddy Profec electronic boost controller but that's a story for another day :)


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