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p_b82 23-09-17 09:20 PM

what was a concern is that the under-body where the tank was is still pretty much pristine - few little marks but nothing to worry about in the slightest... this is purely the tank itself that has deteriorated this much....

I know mine is extreme - but I think it is something all of us are going to have to check going forwards - and maybe try and get some-one to make replacements.... I think more failures will occur :(

p_b82 02-10-17 05:03 PM

So I got the ZS running today with the new tank - started no issues with about 12L of diesel in it. Still got the rest of the old tank to drain and filter and there is still some more in the jerry can, but wanted to give it a chance to leak so if I have to drop it again it's not full again, as it is *so* much easier when it is empty...... that said, it is also so much easier when you don't have to cut the hanging bolts!

for the record the tank straps can be used both sides of the tank - you just have to thread the longer one a lot further up the hanging bolt, but it is not an issue that one side is now NLA.

Also you need a deep 13mm socket to do up the locking nut as the tank straps end foul a spanner (and it is a lot slower).

Next job is to drop it off the stands, then re-bend the front bumper hanging points back up again to stop the wheel fouling under compression...

Then it can be off for the turbo fitting I think!

peterzs 03-10-17 10:21 AM

Good progress.

:):):)

stamford 03-10-17 12:57 PM

Sounds like it is getting there, so hard when there's a V8 nearby distracting you!

p_b82 04-10-17 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamford (Post 376604)
Sounds like it is getting there, so hard when there's a V8 nearby distracting you!

Agreed - the ZS is not quite the fun car compared to my other one anymore.... though it is a lot more fun on B-roads!

dakta 19-12-17 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZS Phil (Post 374787)
Sorry to hear this, I was in exactly the same position in 2011/12. Fitted a VNT on the basis that there would be a controller for me to buy from the same guy you've been dealing with. Never materialised so built an arduino controller myself as got tired of waiting (this is another option for you!!).
There is another guy running one of these elusive controllers but yet to see any dyno figures from it (unless they've been published and I've just missed them).
There's a post above from Jan 2016 saying the controller is virtually finished... I'd be peeved too! Hope he delivers the goods for you and you can press on.


Sorry to dig up an old post but I guess I'm 'that guy'.

Pete's going to get his controller, and we've communicated throughout the process - there have been technical issues, some required bug fixes, one in particular has been a right headache and i couldnt find an obvious causes for ages as it didn't affect all controllers even though I made identical duplicates. It also doesn't help that I don't have a test car myself and have to wait dats, weeks sometimes to get the chance to test a single firmware update.

It's why I've told Pete to drop his car off with us next year when i've got my new unit and we can do some intensive installation and debug work, it's a lot easier developing electronics for a car if you actually have an example of said car in front of you.

I'm a bit disgruntled because the way the l-series community has turned out, and I'm not pointing fingers, but i've always shared my knowledge and theories and in the dying days of l-series all i've got is a long list of people who have used me, or reverse engineered my work, or even taken malicious action against me. I'm quite open and where things haven't worked out how they should be i've always explained why.

Now, explaining why something isn't working doesn't do anything to make things work, but thats as far as I can go because making vnt controllers is at the very petty end of some of the changes we've made in the last 3 years, someone with a bit more business sense would have tried to run away from the project but I promised a controller to peter and he's getting it - i dont care about the opinions of anyone else in the community as there's very few genuine good eggs left, but i promised it to this chap, so he'll get it. It might take more time if more things go wrong in life, and they could - and if they do - pete might have to wait even longer. I hope not. He knows whats happening, and whilst we've been a bit frank at times he's been very good about it all.

But yeah, my commitment to petes project is all there, and there are going to be benefits for him holding out i think, because our facilities if things go the way ive planned will be better than i first expected.

I do unfortunately see the l-series tuning community in a very poor light compared to how i used to though, so many people leeching, nobody developing but everyone wants a whinge when the developers resources are so stretched thin noughts seems to be happening. lot of people over the years, especially on the mapping front (wanting to be seen doing the whole gubbins but nobody wants to sit down for three months of evenings with IDApro actually reverse engineering **** to discover it

thankless task this l-series lark. On the bright side though, anyone who has issue with my dealings doesn't have to deal with me at all, there is the arduino setup which will no doubt give you something to play with, rover ron now does a controller, i've my doubts about the algorithms behind these but my opinion doesnt matter - they're options, or if you want something like mine and a bit quicker you can always commision a freelance developer to do it, cost a penny though.

lifes free, make ya choices, i'll be sticking with pete but its a loyalty thing not a commercial thing, i promised so he'll get. once we've solved the challenges and thats pretty much that. I haven't really worded this reply well but reading through i just thought i gotta say something. Pete I will take criticism from as he's done all he can to help, but theres a lot of people in this world who once upon a time wanted a vnt controller, or other stuff from me, expect to me to give all my development work out on a plate and will at the same time complain at my weaknesses whilst producing nothing themselves.

It's why I don't bother with the l-series scene these days, nobody into actual development, more a case of what they can get

Drew 19-12-17 10:06 AM

How much are they ;)

Hope it goes well for you both in the end.


Drew

Mark S 19-12-17 10:16 AM

dakta,

it’s not just the l series scene, the whole mg zs scene is plagued by penny pinching plum sacks who either copy or repeat what you do as if they owned the patent or simply want the whole deal handed to them on a plate for the price of a penny chew, then delivered and fitted as part of that deal.

glad to say this old forum hasn’t attracted the halfwits that vacate the facebook pages!

dakta 19-12-17 05:00 PM

Thanks, I re-read the post from last night and I thought 'what a rant' :D

but it needs to be said, because I'm commercially active you don't get the opportunity to dish out the other side of the tale at times, though I can tolerate that.

What I really can't stand (and I'm learning about what I can and can't stand on the job) are people who aren't involved in a project, or who aren't stakeholders making out that you're being lazy, or are otherwise lacking. Pete's a grand exception because he's the only person who at any stage has put into the project but i do want to empthasize exception. He's tried to make my life easier actively not passively to keep things moving, most people are just happy to sit and wait whilst i save up for bits for test modules and the like.

There's people in the L-series and MGR tuning scene right now making money off my evenings spent with an emulator finding pathways in the code you don't just accidentally stumble across. We had the initiative (once) but all people want to do is take, and then voice their opinions when there's nothing left on the table except for their displeasure at their being nothing left on the table.

Another way to look at this, lets say I was somehow incapacitated and couldn't make a vnt controller, no hope at all - its bad news but not end of the world, because as quoted above there is the rover ron, or 'arduino' controllers already available, just waiting for people fed up of waiting for me to use...


...so where are the vnt controlled rovers?

Nah push come to shove it sometimes seems the only way a vnt is going on a rover is if I bolt one to one. People have reverse engineered my work, and i haven't kept my ideas or algorithms secret so there's no real reason why any tuner with some brains couldn't get to where we have, and beat me whilst i'm distracted so to speak.

they've had two years, it's not happening is it, so let's just focus on getting Pete sorted.

I feel a bit mean but I'm getitng a bit weary of it sometimes.

pricewise i don;t have a rate for the controller, it's not a commercial project. if it was it wouldn't have been made because it wouldn't have been viable. So I don't expect it to be a profit, I just had a solution that seemed to work so offered to duplicate it.

I can and will make more when im confident bugs are ironed out but i don't see any demand, which isn't surprising because nobody really subscribed to the idea of properly fitting a turbo upgrade to the l-series. except charles, who is enjoyng his vnt at this moment with our controller, and pete who's hopefully about to, once i can get it fitted to a car to figure out why its a bit more temperamental.

We'll keep on plodding but lots more serious stuff happening as well, not to say pete isn't serious but ya know. Lifes a bit more complex than it used to be

p_b82 20-12-17 09:27 AM

The irony is, is that he who shan't be named had bolted the bits on when/how I asked him, I'd be tootling around with the turbo on, I'd have been able to get it up to you with all the bits fitted + you'd then have had the test mule to work out the bugs - or ID if they were actually an issue. It's a pity as we both lost the time waiting for that to pan out I think with hindsight :(

There's not usually one "long pole" in a project

Still - We've got Jan as the time period where we try and get everything together.

I've worked through most the post lay-up niggles now - just tracing why there seems to be so much condensation build up atm, and should replace the blower motor as I'm convinced it's shot now...

dakta 20-12-17 10:02 AM

I could never understand his obsession with having the controller before fitting the turbo.

Running a car without a controller is inherently more safe that throwing a controller on 'to tune later', it did, even though i've tried not to make anything of it, put a lot of pressure on in the 'this must go out perfect' sense.

i found load of bugs when i made charles, and i remember literally being sat on his garden wall laptop in hand writing firmware updates in C# and assembly, bit rough and ready as far as development environments go but took a couple of days to go from prototype to finished in his case. Some bugs wanted a design change (as his car had quite a dirty power supply) but i worked around them using watchdog timers and registers in the processor to do a reset if the power went dodgy, which could be acheived and back to controlling the turbo in less then <5 milliseconds etc, not perfect but worked - i improved on this for yours by adding even more industrial voltage regulation components meaning the workarounds aren't necessary. I also designed the core algorithm to be quite safe, in that if the signals were dirty then it would always 'fail' vanes open - the control equation is quite long with a lot of variables, but if you model it then most inputs if they go to extremes will output a zero duty cycle, so if something did go wrong you generally lose boost but not hardware

in all fairness the only problem ive been having with yours is that the rpm signal isnt stable, but i cant get access to one long enough to examine it properly. ive had to go away, develop something, come back test and over and over and over again... and yeah it takes a bloody age

p_b82 20-12-17 05:49 PM

Well hopefully once you get your hands on it, all the bits fit together nicely and you can work out if that rpm signal is anything to worry about :D

I've been enjoying driving it this past few days - it doesn't go sideways at 20mph if air temps are less than 5c; really looking forward to it with a bit more poke, and being able to use full throttle again!

dakta 20-12-17 06:04 PM

i do hope the bits go together okay, it's not something ive given a lot of thought to as im not in hte fab business (yet) though im getting the tig out tomorrow to make me some pipework as i think my new turbo for my daily will be ready in the morning (had it 'customised' somewhat!)

i dont mind doing a bit of spannering alongside my tuning but i need a decent location for it, removing the dpf to get access to replace the oil supply and drain pipes with a new unit have been a pig, in that respect i miss the l-series

ZS Phil 23-12-17 12:10 PM

Well still got mine, just bolted a 2060 hybrid to it but due a new engine before any power runs. Still have the VNT set up in the loft which was purchased and fitted with a view to running one of your controllers in about 2011. If/ when it gets finished, as I said all along I would buy one off you. Don't expect anything for nothing and never have done. Been the first to try many things on the l series and always shared the results and helped others as much as possible. Was the first to fit the 1852 vnt, first to get the arduino controller working with the rpm signal in our cars, first to fit the 2056s and now first to try a hybrid version of it not to mention trying 300tdi nozzles with offset clamps and various other injectors along the way. Don't want any blue Peter badges though, it's not about it being a thankless task, it's because we enjoy it!
I agree at first glance people in the MGR scene want everything for nothing but really, how many have the ability or know how or even ability to learn how to carry out complex tasks such as build a computer to control a turbo in a car which it was never intended to work in! Of course if somebody comes along with a solution ready to bolt in people are going to want to try it, or copy and paste as it was put. Especially when it has been offered by the vendor. Can't really get on a soap box if when 6 years later it still hasn't materialised and people ask why. Sure you've got your reasons though :).

dakta 25-12-17 09:03 PM

We've had a vnt control box running for the last (3?) years, and we've got the highest figures for a vnt l-series yet - I wouldn't call it getting on a soapbox, i'd personally phrase it more as 'clarifying our position, and reminding people of the difficulties you can face when you genuinely are innovating, as oppose to copy and pasting' - which is exactly what it is a lot of the time. Which I don't mind until they start playing judge when other people have other things to get on with.

We can look at it another way - I'm still building petes, and we've more or less finished charles (I havent touched charles rig for years apart from the occasional chance to test petes controller on it), and I don't know anyone else wanting to fit one so thats the end of the list. Basically we're one project done, and one in progress. Yours was running, and for whatever reasons (im sure you have them :)) you've decided it's best in the loft whilst you try other avenues or do something else etc etc etc. Fair enough not my project nor business except for one minor detail I want to highlight, and that's that we are fitting vnt turbos, we've not removed any and are not likely ever to.

And the reason i highlight this, and its not to your detriment whatsoever, but just to point out the fact that we're working in a uniderctional way, progress is slow, but its forward. I know of a few vnt projects that aren't vnt any more, I saw a vnt 'kit' do the rounds on facebook not all that long ago in fact, once upon a time i knew of a few vnt projects, but most are wastegated again.

I dont work fast for a hundred reasons, even when i get time and the resources to tackle projects its a compromise because my time is split over multiple roles, industries and even continents. But one thing I've absolute confidence in, are those that stuck by me and had the patience will not fit a wastegate turbo ever again. But once again I re-iterate, we're putting vnt's on cars. It's a big job, and it's a nightmare. But with my 45 prototype, and charles production - the results were good, and the production one is staying as tuned. The prototype got dismantled as it literally was a non-road testbed, eventually to go on my zed. But it's bottom priority.


I do take some blame because when i offered these controllers what i really should have done was keep it to myself. Not to be selfish, but just because I was young, naive, had no idea at what life was going to throw at me and offering to do weeks of r+d, coding, nights of soldering and component assembly, months of having pcb's shipped to and from china etc might become a bit of an ask when things take a change and you end up on whats effectively a permanent day and night shift due to having split interests in different industries. I'd love to be better than human but unfortuantely and ive found out the hard way on a number of occasions when you've tried to get more than 24 hours out of a day for too many days in a row life just doesnt work out that way and things tend to go even more to **** than would be caused by slowing up and openly saying things are gunna take a long time. Anyway, I didn't come here to justify the delays, I'm open to pete about them and thats all what matters.

Whats not gunna speed anything up is judgement for the delays.


Quote:

how many have the ability or know how or even ability to learn how to carry out complex tasks such as build a computer to control a turbo in a car which it was never intended to work in!
Honestly? I fear fewer than the number that claim to be professionals in this arena.

However, it can be done. I knew nothing about control theory when I started this task, I had only had half an hour of college time on developing embedded code, nor did i know anything about solenoids or what circuitry i needed to drive them.

What got me through to having a controller we could actually try was having an interest, and a bit of initiative, and a willingness to invest. Not everyones a coder, or electrical engineer but its surprisingly not out of peoples reach if they put their back into it. If i look onto my old hard drive at the time you'll find academic books (wasnt a student at the time but hey ho) just full of mind blowing math functions for different control methodologies and so forth, we invested our time and money into learning it so we could do it.

Nothings out of anyones reach to be honest, there's a lot of things I can't do but i insist on having a go just on principle of it, and it seems to be why we get a lot of opportunity to do interesting stuff

ZS Phil 26-12-17 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakta (Post 377191)

Yours was running, and for whatever reasons (im sure you have them :)) you've decided it's best in the loft whilst you try other avenues.

Indeed, the main reason being that the controller I planned the project around never happened. Fitted the arduino as a short term stop gap until yours was ready (even came to you for mapping in the interim), years passed, got sick of the mechanism sooting up on my daily driver at the time so fitted a low maintenance upgrade instead which at the time was also intended to be short term until the VNT could go back on with some refined control. Not really sure where along the line this breakdown in communication happened, shame really.
Anyway, moving onwards and upwards I genuinely wish yourself and Pete all the best with the project and I hope it turns out as planned. Would still love to see a well controlled and reliable VNT L series on the scene.

dakta 26-12-17 11:07 AM

Quote:

Would still love to see a well controlled and reliable VNT L series on the scene.
Go see charles, he's had one for a wee while (3 years?)

He's had his fair run in with teething issues ( mechanical stuff) but nothing catastrophic I don't think its ever been off the road, though I know he swapped his head at one point. From a controller POV i've not done any work on his since we finished it. I don't know what his plans are with it ultimately but he's running a lot of boost (upper 20's, low 30's) and has done since pretty much the start. from an engineering POV I don't know what people expect in order to call something reliable, but i dont think we've done bad.

As far as communications breakdowns - no idea. The only people who have mentioned vnt controllers on the l-series to me in the last few years have been charles and pete. They have talked to me throughout and everytime we hit a hitch or solved a problem they were pretty much in the mix, more-so with charles as he was the beta tester and saw the most of the bug solving. There's probably some people out there who may have said 'ill have on of those' but charles peter and myself are the people who have been invested into it so to speak, and they can (and frequently do) chat to me about things.

Pete's will get there, I think the issues we face are trivial (just hard to solve without his car to hand) as effectively what we're doing is duplicating charles setup and i think once we get there that's everyone then looked after whos stuck with it.

p_b82 13-02-18 01:25 PM

So given it's a couple of months later, and I've still not posted anything going "squee finally done it" I figured I should probably say the delays are down to the external factor gremlins that none of us have any control over....

Still in the interim she's running well and we've worked out the bits and bobs we need to sort out on top of the bolt on parts we have.

for example, going to add an inline fuel pump to give the main injection pump a slightly reduced workload; going to fit a separate swirlpot - the Petrol tank without the baffle causes starting issues if you get under 1/4 a tank without it.
Going to put the custom injectors in from the off - but hopefully get them detuned to current performance levels; should give some steering on airflow requirements. (fitted a foam pipercross instead of the Green filter as it was so far beyond it's best it was a hindrance & now I don't use the MAF for fueling a small amount of contamination is no longer needed)
We figured that lower stress usage of these injectors should hopefully highlight any potential problems without it being "too serious" given that they are totally experimental & I'm not aware of any-one else having tried them.

On the bad news I've got a slow puncture on the nearside rear tyre - should probably get it round to a tyre fitter to pop it off the rim and re-seal it, as it looks in good nick other than that; though tbh if I had to replace the pair it's still be less than one of the fronts on the Mustang!

dakta 13-02-18 07:25 PM

bit uncanny that you've posted today, I've some news but wont be prudent to confirm how things are going until after an important meeting due to take place tomorrow.

shoot me a message mate there's lots happening

ZS Phil 14-02-18 05:30 PM

What injectors are you going to try Peter just out of interest? I've possibly now got a contact who can re-hone the sdi nozzles to keep the standard spray pattern angle and offset just with larger orifices so save any trial and error.

p_b82 15-02-18 08:54 AM

A set I had made up a while back.

6 smaller holes & a higher break pressure - you were going to test them for me, but took the car off the road before you had a chance.

Wouldn't re-sizing the holes on the SDI spec nozzles just bring us right back into the 200 issues with poor droplet size and atomisation though?

We've been there - 200's just aren't suitable for a VNT setup due to the soot they emit due to the poor combustion we get with them.

dakta 15-02-18 01:29 PM

Quote:

Wouldn't re-sizing the holes on the SDI spec nozzles just bring us right back into the 200 issues with poor droplet size and atomisation though?
Depends, these days i recommend the smallest nozzle you can get away with for obvious reasons. However ultimately (and this is taken more from tuning other manufacturer diesels) you do/should get significant gains from merely enlargening the holes.

Its why people have mulled over the fact that poor combusiton is caused by other factors, but the data to provide a proof isn't easy to come by.

best option is the most expensive and thats literally to get a custom set made. However even then you can't get away from the experimental nature of it nonetheless I wish thee luck

meetings now concluded succesfully so all good.

ZS Phil 15-02-18 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 377426)
A set I had made up a while back.

6 smaller holes & a higher break pressure - you were going to test them for me, but took the car off the road before you had a chance.

Wouldn't re-sizing the holes on the SDI spec nozzles just bring us right back into the 200 issues with poor droplet size and atomisation though?

We've been there - 200's just aren't suitable for a VNT setup due to the soot they emit due to the poor combustion we get with them.

Ah ok, I remember now. Was 2 years ago that now, where does the time go?!
Just got my clutch delivered back from CG today so can pop the engine back in now.
I'm not convinced the orifice size is the problem with the 200 tdis, I have mapped them to give almost a smoke free burn (and very little power). I think the problem is more the position of the holes rather than the size of them.
What I want is the standard spray pattern with a larger orifice. Injection stage pressures can be played with to help with atomization (if needed), I found an interesting paper on this once. But of course that will put more load on the pump.

ZS Phil 15-02-18 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakta (Post 377427)

best option is the most expensive and thats literally to get a custom made

Agreed but try finding a place to do just 1 set!

dakta 15-02-18 07:27 PM

:) I never said it would be easy!

We sort of come back on the old problem of what being possible not being viable. You could (once upon a time, anyway its got a bit saturated now) make a nice economic case for developing an injector upgrade say for a VAG PD or VP engine. The test set you'd take a drastic loss on but you could break even in your first batch of sales and profit on the next

That said it can be done im sure, question is what people will consider value enough to proceed with

p_b82 16-02-18 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZS Phil (Post 377429)
Ah ok, I remember now. Was 2 years ago that now, where does the time go?!
Just got my clutch delivered back from CG today so can pop the engine back in now.
I'm not convinced the orifice size is the problem with the 200 tdis, I have mapped them to give almost a smoke free burn (and very little power). I think the problem is more the position of the holes rather than the size of them.
What I want is the standard spray pattern with a larger orifice. Injection stage pressures can be played with to help with atomization (if needed), I found an interesting paper on this once. But of course that will put more load on the pump.

The problem we have is that as soon as you change the flow rate, you will change the flow pattern away from "standard"

I think I un-earthed the same paper, or you linked me it, as I spent a good while trying to understand the very complex nature of atomisation VS burning characteristics - especially under a compression ignition system.

What could not be denied was that the finer the mist, the better the combustion.
The longer time ignition has - the cleaner the burn too; the combustion becomes more complete as it has longer to use the available oxygen.

It isn't just a single simple factor as droplet size, but I do think that for our engines, with the limitations of the head and the flow characteristics we have, 200's just aren't the way to go; if they were easily tamed then it would have been done by now IMO.

From what I've read, more smaller holes should burn cleaner, if we're still top end limited by the pump, then so be it; but what I didn't want is to build something that coked the vanes up and needed a turbo rebuild after only a few K miles. That seems to be the net result of any-one with a VNT that tried to use 200's.

Hopefully I'll know in the not too distant future, and can feedback any findings... Not that many people here will go down the route I am!

ZS Phil 17-02-18 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakta (Post 377431)
:) I never said it would be easy!

We sort of come back on the old problem of what being possible not being viable. You could (once upon a time, anyway its got a bit saturated now) make a nice economic case for developing an injector upgrade say for a VAG PD or VP engine. The test set you'd take a drastic loss on but you could break even in your first batch of sales and profit on the next

That said it can be done im sure, question is what people will consider value enough to proceed with

This is the problem, not enough people willing to spend the money. To be fair though, can't really blame them. I think you have to be pretty keen to be doing what we are doing with clanger old rover diesel engines.
Getting a set modified, for a one off at least, will work out cheaper I imagine. Trouble is the possible place is in Poland :(. Well see what happens though.

ZS Phil 17-02-18 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 377432)
The problem we have is that as soon as you change the flow rate, you will change the flow pattern away from "standard"

I think I un-earthed the same paper, or you linked me it, as I spent a good while trying to understand the very complex nature of atomisation VS burning characteristics - especially under a compression ignition system.

What could not be denied was that the finer the mist, the better the combustion.
The longer time ignition has - the cleaner the burn too; the combustion becomes more complete as it has longer to use the available oxygen.

It isn't just a single simple factor as droplet size, but I do think that for our engines, with the limitations of the head and the flow characteristics we have, 200's just aren't the way to go; if they were easily tamed then it would have been done by now IMO.

From what I've read, more smaller holes should burn cleaner, if we're still top end limited by the pump, then so be it; but what I didn't want is to build something that coked the vanes up and needed a turbo rebuild after only a few K miles. That seems to be the net result of any-one with a VNT that tried to use 200's.

Hopefully I'll know in the not too distant future, and can feedback any findings... Not that many people here will go down the route I am!

That's pretty much my understanding of the matter too but as with everything it is a compromise, all very well having optimal atomization but if you can only get 40mg/stroke of fuel in the it defeats the point, May be better to have slightly less than optimal atomization (but still got enough for minimal smoke) but ultimately allow more useable fuel in per stroke than SDIs allow for.
Just doing some quick maths looking at combined orifice area looks like this:
Sdi (5 x 0.22) total area is 0.190
At a guess your proposed nozzles (assuming the part number ends 882) (6 x 0.205) total area is 0.198
Sdi modified (5 x 0.23) total area is 0.210
200 tdi (5 x 0.24) total area is 0.225

My concern would be at what angle do those 6 hole injectors enter the head in the engine for which they were designed? Is there an offset bowl in the piston? What is the clamp angle in the original engine? It is these factors which I believe makes the burn so rubbish with the 200 tdis.
There is so little info about those 6 hole nozzles and even less about the engine for which they are designed so finding the answers to the above questions is very difficult by simply looking online. Either pull a scrap engine to bits and get the measuring tape out or as Kris said, get them fitted and suck it and see. The letter being the much easier option I imagine.

ZS Phil 17-02-18 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_b82 (Post 377432)
The problem we have is that as soon as you change the flow rate, you will change the flow pattern away from "standard"

I think I un-earthed the same paper, or you linked me it, as I spent a good while trying to understand the very complex nature of atomisation VS burning characteristics - especially under a compression ignition system.

What could not be denied was that the finer the mist, the better the combustion.
The longer time ignition has - the cleaner the burn too; the combustion becomes more complete as it has longer to use the available oxygen.

It isn't just a single simple factor as droplet size, but I do think that for our engines, with the limitations of the head and the flow characteristics we have, 200's just aren't the way to go; if they were easily tamed then it would have been done by now IMO.

From what I've read, more smaller holes should burn cleaner, if we're still top end limited by the pump, then so be it; but what I didn't want is to build something that coked the vanes up and needed a turbo rebuild after only a few K miles. That seems to be the net result of any-one with a VNT that tried to use 200's.

Hopefully I'll know in the not too distant future, and can feedback any findings... Not that many people here will go down the route I am!

That's pretty much my understanding of the matter too but as with everything it is a compromise, all very well having optimal atomization but if you can only get 40mg/stroke of fuel in the it defeats the point, May be better to have slightly less than optimal atomization (but still got enough for minimal smoke) but ultimately allow more useable fuel in per stroke than SDIs allow for.
Just doing some quick maths looking at combined orifice area looks like this:
Sdi (5 x 0.22) total area is 0.190
At a guess your proposed nozzles (assuming the part number ends 882) (6 x 0.205) total area is 0.198
Sdi modified (5 x 0.23) total area is 0.210
200 tdi (5 x 0.24) total area is 0.225

My concern would be at what angle do those 6 hole injectors enter the head in the engine for which they were designed? Is there an offset bowl in the piston? What is the clamp angle in the original engine? It is these factors which I believe makes the burn so rubbish with the 200 tdis.
There is so little info about those 6 hole nozzles and even less about the engine for which they are designed so finding the answers to the above questions is very difficult by simply looking online. Either pull a scrap engine to bits and get the measuring tape out or as Kris said, get them fitted and suck it and see. The letter being the much easier option I imagine.

p_b82 17-02-18 01:24 PM

Agreed it is all a compromise indeed - there is a balance (was reading some stuff on the early cummins yesterday and 5 hole VS 6 hole (with 4 and 7 being debated rages).

They are using injectors in inches not cms, but their "small" 6*0.33mm (0.013") flow slightly more than the 5*0.35 (0.014")

It is a stupidly complex situation, there is no "definitive" article out there, and so it is experimentation. Simple % area increase doesn't easily translate to X bhp or Y smoke.

What seems to be pertinent is making sure you get the right angled injection pattern rather than the number of holes - EG don't stick a set of 155's in a 145 piston crown config. As is getting a flat plane injector VS an angled one...

Finding out the injector angle to the head is not easy though - nor is always finding the relevant nozzle part number for a given injector at times... That's where the risk factor comes in.

I'm willing to experiment, I can burn through a few sets and types of nozzles if I need to, to find what I am looking for. If I do it alone then I'll not be sharing precise details... I was bitten hard by testing the headlift theory and helping to prove it conclusively for the masses, and I frankly am not willing to spend the £ on research for others to just benefit from the rewards anymore. Selfish I know, but I've not seen any-one else share that sort of cost burden in the years since...

If some-one shares costs then they'll gain from the knowledge we accumulate - all I know is that there are loads of potential options open to us - one has to think beyond the given part numbers that are floated about as gospel....

If my rig had been built when it was supposed to be, I'd have worked through a few options by now - unless I got lucky with my first choice... I'm not expecting it, but time will tell.

ZS Phil 17-02-18 09:06 PM

Trial and error is the only way of really knowing but, as it sounds like you are doing, an educated guess as much as poss.
Looking through the catalogues of DSLA 145p injectors with a 2 stage spring doesn't leave that much choice to work through once orifice number and size are taken into consideration. I've done 200 tdis to death with several maps, I did try 300 tdi with custom brackets as per my build thread but that was with only a max fuel map as I hadn't learnt how to map at that point. I remember they were awesome low down but just drowned the engine with fuel once above 1500 rpm or so. Could be worth 're-visiting and playing with mapping to tone them down higher up the revs. Only problem is I'd have to buy more as I sold the nozzles on afterwards.
Obviously you are going to try the 6 hole ones and I'm doing my best to get some modified standard nozzles so I'm sure between us we can work out what works. Having tried 4 sets of injectors, 4 turbos, several wastegate configurations and 4 boost control methods along with countless maps I can empathise that these things cost money!
I'll keep you posted with the custom nozzles if I can get anywhere with it.

p_b82 19-02-18 10:07 AM

Agreed the DSLA types have only got limited choices - though there are loads of part numbers for 0.23's looking at the current list!

I haven't tried it myself, but I believe you can fit a DLLA nozzle too - not sure if it is something that can be mapped round, but I read it'd been done on a forum... so it is another potential avenue....

Time will tell whether I've made a good call or not - again my prime factor is a clean burn and ideally more than the 180bhp mark, but if we can't get a nozzle to suit then we're going to have to re-think!

p_b82 18-04-18 09:00 AM

So we've got a date due to the outside factors now being aligned and sorted....

27th I'll be dropping the car off for the turbo fitting and the other bits I want done at the same time.... no fixed timescale, as it'll take as long as it takes; but it won't be 2 years on holiday this time! :D

dakta 18-04-18 01:29 PM

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20160313182405

peterzs 18-04-18 06:49 PM

good luck.

p_b82 13-05-18 11:34 AM

This morning I was sent a short clip of the new turbo in place bolted on and the engine running....

Got pipework to sort out on the air side as the alignments are different, but the 'oily bits' are all done and hooked up.

The electronics and the boost pipework to sort, plus the "extras" I've asked for that are linked but not required in the strictest of senses...

So progress is being made :D

dakta 15-05-18 03:43 PM

I am like you rather excited at what this could offer.

We don't tune many L-series these days, but when we do it's a cracker.

Lot's of stuff done, lot's of stuff to do, and lot's of things to look forward to that I can't talk about.

Won't be done tomorrow but going at a rate of knots

all good!

p_b82 11-02-19 05:20 PM

But of an update... I'd not realised that quite so much time had passed - my dad's cancer and eventual death has kinda warped perspective of time.

We had some issues with overboost - location of the turbo and actuator and oil drain caused issues and the vanes wouldn't properly and fully open.

Then the clutch hydraulics failed again. It was difficult to track down the part fitted by matt, my paperwork only had a handwritten note about a clutch slave and no part numbers on it. Seal rebuild kit didn't solve the leak either...

We've something on there that's been customised, I think ultimately we need to find a bigger/stronger slave as I've popped the seals at least 4 times now on the slave so the helix cover is probably a bit too strong for what we had fitted.

But now we've got some gears it's been on the dyno to test the overboost issue and without a connection to a vac tube to run it as nasp we've only got a tiny amount of boost right at the top end....

So controller can be plugged in, ecu can be mapped and we can test/define the combined responses....

Running nasp still hit 120bhp...so more than it came out the factory, but the torque curve is terrible lol.

Hoping to get things tweaked running with the sdi's then I think we'll throw the custom injectors in and see where we can go from there...

I'm not sure I will make PoL as still need an MOT too, but should finally get to make use of all those fancy mods I've bought and hopefully no more HG issues!

stamford 11-02-19 08:34 PM

Hard to get motivated when other things take priority and time takes its toll. I’m the same with my ZS. Likely aiming for zed20 now.

Street Elite 14-02-19 09:28 PM

So I'm looking to get hold of a diesel soon!


Drew


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