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14-06-12, 06:44 PM
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#161
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 393
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hmmmm, ive been thinking about this build and its results today because somehow it didn't add up and ive figured it out.
Now this isn't meant to cause arguemnet or upset anyone, but steve and george after all the work and time need to know the results are correct or not, because as it stands the quoted results are just impossible to achieve...so this is hopefully a constructive post, leading to investigation to solve or find out who is at error.
quote george
"The torque low down is not as good as a std car being 140ftlbs however it increases to over 160ftlbs and holds it to over 6000rpm.
Peak power is at 6800rpm and revs to 7200rpm."
please anyone who has a roller graph dig it out to try this or refer to drews graph 2-3 pages earlier in this thread.
put simply........Torque x revs creates bhp.
The actual formula is torque x revs divide 5252 = flywheel bhp.
This info is all on the net and applies to all engines wether large or small, standard or modified from fiesta to ferrari.
You can check on your graphs, pick a point in the revs anywhere, note the torque figure, then do the sum.....torque x revs divide 5252 and you will get your bhp for the same revs, try it !
Now then if we look at steves results , being 234 bhp and 160ft lb, we do the sums and realise these numbers are impossible.
peak torque is quote " over 160 and holds it to over 6000".
Ok so as we know torque is dropping off at 6000 revs, and so at 6800 its actually back down to circa 140ft lb...but for the sake of argumenet we will assume that the engine is still making peak torque of 160 at 6800 revs peak power,
( even though thats impossible), now lets do the sums.
( torque) 160 x (revs) 6800 divide by 5252 = 207 bhp flywheel
now if we take the actual torque at 6800 of 140 ft lb
140 x 6800 divide by 5252 = 181 bhp flywheel
we know torque is dropping over 6000 because george indirectly says so and hes seen the graph, but also because on a genuine roller graph torque and bhp always cross at 5252 rpm's, this is the point where torque is dropping and bhp is building, so at 6k torque is falling off quickly, once again check your own graphs to see.
To sum up , it is impossible to have less torque but more bhp at the same point in the revs, thats just fact.
You can lose torque low down and gain bhp high up but you will also gain torque high up. Anywhere torque is lost or gained in the rev range, the same will be mirrored by the bhp, check how on your graphs the torque and bhp mirror each other through the revs.
You cannot lose torque high up and yet gain bhp because one is as a direct result of the other.
To make a peak of 234 bhp steves engine actually needs 181ft lb at 6800 rpm's, and its just nowhere near , and cant get anywhere near with its current spec.
To gain top end bhp it needs to gain top end torque, and its actually lost torque compared to when the car was making 204 bhp on the standard plenum, so its actually making less power now than it was before the btcc plenum was fitted......assuming the quoted torque figures are correct.
Once again, this isnt intended to wind anyone up and i wonder if this is why we have no roller graph from thor...because its wrong!
I leave it to steve and george to decide how to go about solving this, but please keep us updated.
I can't believe no'one else spotted this !
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14-06-12, 07:41 PM
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#162
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Staffs
Posts: 831
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Dave I havent even seen the Graph.
Ive requested it the day Steve posted the results.
I had a call from Thor regarding the results and i rang Steve and gave them to him.
Until I see the graph I cant comment, and Im sure the graph will put things into perspective.
Dave, only you have noticed it and thats because you have been dying to pick fault yet again.
Hondas dont have much torque, but have high horse power.
Once I have the graphs I will pass a comment, until then I wont.
However, why is it then, a Honda can make 271bhp but only have 150ftlb Dave?
I have never had doubts with Thor, and will ring them tomoz to chase the graphs.
I havent been to collect the car, as I have been involved with MG6 things !!
G
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14-06-12, 07:59 PM
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#163
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 393
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sorry you seem to have taken offence.
You judge me wrongly, yes we have argued in the past and still disagree on things, but im trying to help here not pick fault !
hondas make high bhp with low torque because they rev much higher.
Bhp is a direct result of torque x revs ,so higher revs equals higher power
As i stated the formula works on every engine regardless of make or size, try it out or just do some research on the internet. I thought more people would have known this.
You need to check this out so you can sort steves car, please dont just discount this because its me saying it.
edit, find me a honda graph and post it here and we will test it.
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14-06-12, 08:14 PM
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#164
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 393
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honda graph...click to enlarge, low torque but high power because of high revs.
Try it, take any point in the rev range, note the torque and the revs , then do torque x revs divide by 5252.
All im saying is, there is something here to investigate , im not blaming anyone so please dont take it personally.
Last edited by Quadcam24; 14-06-12 at 08:19 PM.
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14-06-12, 08:51 PM
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#166
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IT Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winchester-ish
Posts: 5,092
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I had also noticed, but was waiting to see the graph before commenting...
As George says he hasn't seen the graph, so is relaying info passed to him over the phone... its quite possible that chinese whispers has twisted the torque figure, but until George (and us) see the graph, no one knows!
Credit for doing something different though!!
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15-06-12, 06:44 AM
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#167
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 393
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hope thor can give us steves graph today , and that it makes sense, because this is just another worry for him in a long line of worries i suppose.
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15-06-12, 10:05 AM
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#168
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Staffs
Posts: 831
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Just spoke to Thor.
The peak torque figure @ fly is 192.7ftlb. Torque @ fly @ 6000rpm is 181ftlbs.
I'm waiting for graphs.
Power @ wheels is 196bhp !
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15-06-12, 02:02 PM
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#169
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: kent
Posts: 621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadcam24
hope thor can give us steves graph today , and that it makes sense, because this is just another worry for him in a long line of worries i suppose.
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na mate never been worry'd about it to be honest nothing that a quick phone call did not sort out anyway (ok may be once,but there was a GOOD reason and i think i would of done the same and this was long long long time ago )
as for the graphs all in good time  lol
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15-06-12, 02:04 PM
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#170
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 393
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well thats a tiny bit better but still doesn't add up, so we know nothing till we can see the graphs.
On the new figures you still only have 207 bhp max peak power at 6800.
How can thor tell you peak torque was 160 but after another phone call its suddenly 190...someone over at thor is either havin a giraffe or they're a biscuit short of the full pack.
Are you sure they have even mapped it , i reckon they're playing you off.
have you or steve actually been to test drive it and seen it finished ?
Get your a55 over there and kick up a stink is my advice.
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