Not sure...

zsserbia · 06-06-11, 07:24 PM

As I said, not sure if this is worth a thread, but had anyone noticed how downsized-engined, to heavy-to slow most of the cars are nowadays? Horsepower they have, but still no performance...

For example, new focus, 1.6 ltr tdci, 115 hp, comparing with zs derv, same bhp but smaller boot, almost 300 kilograms heavier and 0-60 in 10,9 sec?

Not to mention vw and similar class saloons, 140+ bhp, 2 ltr dervs and still over 10 sec to 60 and barely 120 mph... Beemers set aside as always but so many out there. What's the point? Can't they make them just normal anymore?

One good thing imho, the upcoming KERS system, first adopted by porsche from F1 technology, now volvo and soon many others. It will make some fat asses move when the light turns green...

If you guys care, drop a line, if not, wtf...

caled · 06-06-11, 10:17 PM

I think a lot of modern cars are aiming less at 0-60 times and more at fuel consumption, NCAP safety (hence the increased weight) and emissions. And gadgets, lots and lots of gadgets. Sad but true, gone are the days of the ridiculously cheap litres of petrol and insurance for a couple hundred quid.
I noticed for the first time a start-stop system on a car, a 60 plate BMW at the lights. Lights went green and there was a split second where you could hear the car start up before it started moving. Dont think it works too well on petrol cars, but hybrid petrol-electrics I think could work ok. I dont like the idea of a car that keeps turning itself off...

LozMachine · 06-06-11, 10:25 PM

Thats why i like th zs. when car makers were falling over themselves to produce ever safer (read heavier) euro box cars mgr were chucking out the zs which was basically a 90's design .....old skool...

peterzs · 06-06-11, 10:38 PM

On the same line, I cant get over the way cars seem to get bigger and bigger.

Ford Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, you used to look at the car and know what it was and where it was in the line up. Now they all seem to have been on steroids. New Mondeos look like the size of the Granadas.

Same with the Vauxhall line up.

Maybe that's the problem, same engines trying to pull around bigger and wider models.

zsserbia · 06-06-11, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caled

I think a lot of modern cars are aiming less at 0-60 times and more at fuel consumption, NCAP safety (hence the increased weight) and emissions. And gadgets, lots and lots of gadgets. Sad but true, gone are the days of the ridiculously cheap litres of petrol and insurance for a couple hundred quid.
I noticed for the first time a start-stop system on a car, a 60 plate BMW at the lights. Lights went green and there was a split second where you could hear the car start up before it started moving. Dont think it works too well on petrol cars, but hybrid petrol-electrics I think could work ok. I dont like the idea of a car that keeps turning itself off...

True, running a car will never be cheap as it used to be...
Start/stop system is a good point, but as said, annoying to many. I think KERS is much better approach, it provides much needed power exactly when you actually need it (green light launch, quick blast on the corner exits and a couple of overtakings). Volvo claims it will put the main engine up to 50% less needed, increasing it's life span and provide benefits of 20% fuel savings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieSJzDi4rAk

Amazingly simple, yet brilliant (the flywheel reaches 60k rpm)... Really looking forward to this being installed in most of the cars of the near future.

zsserbia · 06-06-11, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LozMachine

Thats why i like th zs. when car makers were falling over themselves to produce ever safer (read heavier) euro box cars mgr were chucking out the zs which was basically a 90's design .....old skool...

Exactly one of the things to make a ZS a smartass :-)

Plus, it's a lot safer (read lighter) around corners hence it doesn't even require so much passive safety ;-)

Ritchy · 06-06-11, 10:57 PM

its all about emissions these days, but i think its a bit daft theyre looking at whats coming out the exhaust, but they arent really looking at the amount of extra energy, engineering, expense and emmisions that come into making these systems, egr systems really dont make that much of a difference, however for example on the transit they are forever going wrong...think of the amount of energy is required to make this valve.
then the diesel particulate system on the focus that has the extra tank that has highly toxic fluid in it, that when you refill it you loose so much, do they forget that that needs to get cleaned up and disposed of, and then the process for making it in the first place cant imagine thats too pretty
and worst of all the hybrids, the sulpher mining required to get the stuff for the batterys is horrendous, and the batterys have a service life of 6 years? or something, hmmm very friendly, well atleast the gas coming out the exhaust is clean.
the dpf systems on the mazda puts diesel in on the exhaust stroke when its doing a regen, if it doesn complete it because its a short journey then it keeps on doing it, eventually filling the sump up where if it doesnt get changed it then runs on on the sump oil and destroys the engine, turbo, all the sensors in the exhaust system, and the cat, think of the processes that are needed to create all these components, and they all need replaced because of an emissions system thats just destroyed them all

however the power you actually get out the modern tdci engines is amazing, been driving about in several modern 2 litre diesels and the torque in them just blows you away

caled · 06-06-11, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchy

however the power you actually get out the modern tdci engines is amazing, been driving about in several modern 2 litre diesels and the torque in them just blows you away

not just you, the expensive dual mass flywheel gets blown to bits too. And then theres the extremely expensive, coded injectors - I wonder how many miles you need to do in a diesel to offset the cost of a new dual mass flywheel and a new set of coded injectors? As the Ford TDCI engines are now aging, I hear more and more of these issues cropping up. False economy perhaps?
Im getting cynical in my old age, Ive obviously been spending too much time on .org lol.

zsserbia · 06-06-11, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterzs

On the same line, I cant get over the way cars seem to get bigger and bigger.

Ford Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, you used to look at the car and know what it was and where it was in the line up. Now they all seem to have been on steroids. New Mondeos look like the size of the Granadas.

Same with the Vauxhall line up.

Maybe that's the problem, same engines trying to pull around bigger and wider models.

Focus runs ok, 1.8 tdci, but mk1 had some 90 hp, then mk2 115 hp but feels so wobbly and terrible 'round corners and no faster than mk1. Again, the new model 1.8 derv will have 163 hp but 1570 kilos to cope with... 1,6 tdci 115 hp will need 10,9 0-60, and the same 30-70... Was reading a review of some astra estate recently, over 160 hp and 10-ish to 60. Fuel consumption not so well either, same as older dervs because of so much dead weight.
On the other hand, no play station generation would buy anything that looks like PS1, would they? Progress I like, the direction I don't...

zsserbia · 06-06-11, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchy

its all about emissions these days, but i think its a bit daft theyre looking at whats coming out the exhaust, but they arent really looking at the amount of extra energy, engineering, expense and emmisions that come into making these systems, egr systems really dont make that much of a difference, however for example on the transit they are forever going wrong...think of the amount of energy is required to make this valve.
then the diesel particulate system on the focus that has the extra tank that has highly toxic fluid in it, that when you refill it you loose so much, do they forget that that needs to get cleaned up and disposed of, and then the process for making it in the first place cant imagine thats too pretty
and worst of all the hybrids, the sulpher mining required to get the stuff for the batterys is horrendous, and the batterys have a service life of 6 years? or something, hmmm very friendly, well atleast the gas coming out the exhaust is clean.
the dpf systems on the mazda puts diesel in on the exhaust stroke when its doing a regen, if it doesn complete it because its a short journey then it keeps on doing it, eventually filling the sump up where if it doesnt get changed it then runs on on the sump oil and destroys the engine, turbo, all the sensors in the exhaust system, and the cat, think of the processes that are needed to create all these components, and they all need replaced because of an emissions system thats just destroyed them all

however the power you actually get out the modern tdci engines is amazing, been driving about in several modern 2 litre diesels and the torque in them just blows you away

All that said, I vote even more for the KERS system, it' s autonomous, thus leading to no failures to the main power plant, it saves the engine, clutch and the drivetrain from stress, it involves no expensive batteries (just a small one) and when put to mass production it may become as cheep as your alternator or starter motor today. Plus it would feel as real wind in the back...
Couldn't agree more that most of the stuff they put into modern diesels are rubbish and certainly NOT cost effective, leading to high expenses once they fail (DMF, electronic injectors, particle filters...) Name it and it may cost a fortune, especially when you purchase a used focus or some other derv...