tuned derv ZS update

[dakta]

I could never understand his obsession with having the controller before fitting the turbo.

Running a car without a controller is inherently more safe that throwing a controller on 'to tune later', it did, even though i've tried not to make anything of it, put a lot of pressure on in the 'this must go out perfect' sense.

i found load of bugs when i made charles, and i remember literally being sat on his garden wall laptop in hand writing firmware updates in C# and assembly, bit rough and ready as far as development environments go but took a couple of days to go from prototype to finished in his case. Some bugs wanted a design change (as his car had quite a dirty power supply) but i worked around them using watchdog timers and registers in the processor to do a reset if the power went dodgy, which could be acheived and back to controlling the turbo in less then <5 milliseconds etc, not perfect but worked - i improved on this for yours by adding even more industrial voltage regulation components meaning the workarounds aren't necessary. I also designed the core algorithm to be quite safe, in that if the signals were dirty then it would always 'fail' vanes open - the control equation is quite long with a lot of variables, but if you model it then most inputs if they go to extremes will output a zero duty cycle, so if something did go wrong you generally lose boost but not hardware

in all fairness the only problem ive been having with yours is that the rpm signal isnt stable, but i cant get access to one long enough to examine it properly. ive had to go away, develop something, come back test and over and over and over again... and yeah it takes a bloody age

[p_b82]

Well hopefully once you get your hands on it, all the bits fit together nicely and you can work out if that rpm signal is anything to worry about

I've been enjoying driving it this past few days - it doesn't go sideways at 20mph if air temps are less than 5c; really looking forward to it with a bit more poke, and being able to use full throttle again!

[dakta]

i do hope the bits go together okay, it's not something ive given a lot of thought to as im not in hte fab business (yet) though im getting the tig out tomorrow to make me some pipework as i think my new turbo for my daily will be ready in the morning (had it 'customised' somewhat!)

i dont mind doing a bit of spannering alongside my tuning but i need a decent location for it, removing the dpf to get access to replace the oil supply and drain pipes with a new unit have been a pig, in that respect i miss the l-series

[ZS Phil]

Well still got mine, just bolted a 2060 hybrid to it but due a new engine before any power runs. Still have the VNT set up in the loft which was purchased and fitted with a view to running one of your controllers in about 2011. If/ when it gets finished, as I said all along I would buy one off you. Don't expect anything for nothing and never have done. Been the first to try many things on the l series and always shared the results and helped others as much as possible. Was the first to fit the 1852 vnt, first to get the arduino controller working with the rpm signal in our cars, first to fit the 2056s and now first to try a hybrid version of it not to mention trying 300tdi nozzles with offset clamps and various other injectors along the way. Don't want any blue Peter badges though, it's not about it being a thankless task, it's because we enjoy it!
I agree at first glance people in the MGR scene want everything for nothing but really, how many have the ability or know how or even ability to learn how to carry out complex tasks such as build a computer to control a turbo in a car which it was never intended to work in! Of course if somebody comes along with a solution ready to bolt in people are going to want to try it, or copy and paste as it was put. Especially when it has been offered by the vendor. Can't really get on a soap box if when 6 years later it still hasn't materialised and people ask why. Sure you've got your reasons though .

[dakta]

We've had a vnt control box running for the last (3?) years, and we've got the highest figures for a vnt l-series yet - I wouldn't call it getting on a soapbox, i'd personally phrase it more as 'clarifying our position, and reminding people of the difficulties you can face when you genuinely are innovating, as oppose to copy and pasting' - which is exactly what it is a lot of the time. Which I don't mind until they start playing judge when other people have other things to get on with.

We can look at it another way - I'm still building petes, and we've more or less finished charles (I havent touched charles rig for years apart from the occasional chance to test petes controller on it), and I don't know anyone else wanting to fit one so thats the end of the list. Basically we're one project done, and one in progress. Yours was running, and for whatever reasons (im sure you have them ) you've decided it's best in the loft whilst you try other avenues or do something else etc etc etc. Fair enough not my project nor business except for one minor detail I want to highlight, and that's that we are fitting vnt turbos, we've not removed any and are not likely ever to.

And the reason i highlight this, and its not to your detriment whatsoever, but just to point out the fact that we're working in a uniderctional way, progress is slow, but its forward. I know of a few vnt projects that aren't vnt any more, I saw a vnt 'kit' do the rounds on facebook not all that long ago in fact, once upon a time i knew of a few vnt projects, but most are wastegated again.

I dont work fast for a hundred reasons, even when i get time and the resources to tackle projects its a compromise because my time is split over multiple roles, industries and even continents. But one thing I've absolute confidence in, are those that stuck by me and had the patience will not fit a wastegate turbo ever again. But once again I re-iterate, we're putting vnt's on cars. It's a big job, and it's a nightmare. But with my 45 prototype, and charles production - the results were good, and the production one is staying as tuned. The prototype got dismantled as it literally was a non-road testbed, eventually to go on my zed. But it's bottom priority.


I do take some blame because when i offered these controllers what i really should have done was keep it to myself. Not to be selfish, but just because I was young, naive, had no idea at what life was going to throw at me and offering to do weeks of r+d, coding, nights of soldering and component assembly, months of having pcb's shipped to and from china etc might become a bit of an ask when things take a change and you end up on whats effectively a permanent day and night shift due to having split interests in different industries. I'd love to be better than human but unfortuantely and ive found out the hard way on a number of occasions when you've tried to get more than 24 hours out of a day for too many days in a row life just doesnt work out that way and things tend to go even more to **** than would be caused by slowing up and openly saying things are gunna take a long time. Anyway, I didn't come here to justify the delays, I'm open to pete about them and thats all what matters.

Whats not gunna speed anything up is judgement for the delays.

how many have the ability or know how or even ability to learn how to carry out complex tasks such as build a computer to control a turbo in a car which it was never intended to work in!

Honestly? I fear fewer than the number that claim to be professionals in this arena.

However, it can be done. I knew nothing about control theory when I started this task, I had only had half an hour of college time on developing embedded code, nor did i know anything about solenoids or what circuitry i needed to drive them.

What got me through to having a controller we could actually try was having an interest, and a bit of initiative, and a willingness to invest. Not everyones a coder, or electrical engineer but its surprisingly not out of peoples reach if they put their back into it. If i look onto my old hard drive at the time you'll find academic books (wasnt a student at the time but hey ho) just full of mind blowing math functions for different control methodologies and so forth, we invested our time and money into learning it so we could do it.

Nothings out of anyones reach to be honest, there's a lot of things I can't do but i insist on having a go just on principle of it, and it seems to be why we get a lot of opportunity to do interesting stuff

[ZS Phil]

Originally Posted by dakta

Yours was running, and for whatever reasons (im sure you have them ) you've decided it's best in the loft whilst you try other avenues.

Indeed, the main reason being that the controller I planned the project around never happened. Fitted the arduino as a short term stop gap until yours was ready (even came to you for mapping in the interim), years passed, got sick of the mechanism sooting up on my daily driver at the time so fitted a low maintenance upgrade instead which at the time was also intended to be short term until the VNT could go back on with some refined control. Not really sure where along the line this breakdown in communication happened, shame really.
Anyway, moving onwards and upwards I genuinely wish yourself and Pete all the best with the project and I hope it turns out as planned. Would still love to see a well controlled and reliable VNT L series on the scene.

[dakta]

Would still love to see a well controlled and reliable VNT L series on the scene.

Go see charles, he's had one for a wee while (3 years?)

He's had his fair run in with teething issues ( mechanical stuff) but nothing catastrophic I don't think its ever been off the road, though I know he swapped his head at one point. From a controller POV i've not done any work on his since we finished it. I don't know what his plans are with it ultimately but he's running a lot of boost (upper 20's, low 30's) and has done since pretty much the start. from an engineering POV I don't know what people expect in order to call something reliable, but i dont think we've done bad.

As far as communications breakdowns - no idea. The only people who have mentioned vnt controllers on the l-series to me in the last few years have been charles and pete. They have talked to me throughout and everytime we hit a hitch or solved a problem they were pretty much in the mix, more-so with charles as he was the beta tester and saw the most of the bug solving. There's probably some people out there who may have said 'ill have on of those' but charles peter and myself are the people who have been invested into it so to speak, and they can (and frequently do) chat to me about things.

Pete's will get there, I think the issues we face are trivial (just hard to solve without his car to hand) as effectively what we're doing is duplicating charles setup and i think once we get there that's everyone then looked after whos stuck with it.

[p_b82]

So given it's a couple of months later, and I've still not posted anything going "squee finally done it" I figured I should probably say the delays are down to the external factor gremlins that none of us have any control over....

Still in the interim she's running well and we've worked out the bits and bobs we need to sort out on top of the bolt on parts we have.

for example, going to add an inline fuel pump to give the main injection pump a slightly reduced workload; going to fit a separate swirlpot - the Petrol tank without the baffle causes starting issues if you get under 1/4 a tank without it.
Going to put the custom injectors in from the off - but hopefully get them detuned to current performance levels; should give some steering on airflow requirements. (fitted a foam pipercross instead of the Green filter as it was so far beyond it's best it was a hindrance & now I don't use the MAF for fueling a small amount of contamination is no longer needed)
We figured that lower stress usage of these injectors should hopefully highlight any potential problems without it being "too serious" given that they are totally experimental & I'm not aware of any-one else having tried them.

On the bad news I've got a slow puncture on the nearside rear tyre - should probably get it round to a tyre fitter to pop it off the rim and re-seal it, as it looks in good nick other than that; though tbh if I had to replace the pair it's still be less than one of the fronts on the Mustang!

[dakta]

bit uncanny that you've posted today, I've some news but wont be prudent to confirm how things are going until after an important meeting due to take place tomorrow.

shoot me a message mate there's lots happening

[ZS Phil]

What injectors are you going to try Peter just out of interest? I've possibly now got a contact who can re-hone the sdi nozzles to keep the standard spray pattern angle and offset just with larger orifices so save any trial and error.